Do you know a pilot killed in a fatal accident?

[Seth]

On 1/9/2021 at 11:25 AM, carusoam said:

I barely knew Patrick, but his infectious love of Mooney aviation was all it took to make him memorable... I met Patrick by telephone while I was having difficulty with phone calls...  

Patrick was working closely with 201er organizing a big NJ Mooney fly-in...

Patrick’s lasting memory is a reminder to know your DA before departure... and when close, use every foot of runway available...

 

@patrickf’s handy method of doing T/O calculations is a great solution for the traditional paper / calculation challenges...

 

So... as difficult of a topic it is to cover... there are lessons that are best to be known... to better not repeat...

The biggest lesson to be gained from knowing MSers... at least two highly flight-educated Mooney pilots have miscalculated the amount of runway and climb capability of their planes... resulting in the tangling with trees...

 

The really cool part... As terrible as aviation accidents are... they are a very small percentage of the rest of real life’s challenges...

Don’t give up flying a Mooney because it is perceived as dangerous... training, tools, and recency are a really good defense.

For really dangerous activities... eating French fries, rice, breads and drinking a big soda, while sitting on a sofa for hours at a time.... can be really hazardous for some...  

Fly On, Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

I had met Patrick as well. He's one of two Mooney pilots that I've know and we've lost. 

-Seth

[Seth]

Mike-

Thank you for this topic. It brings into focus a lot. We may mention it at Mooney Summit - we may even use the poll.

-Seth

[201er]

7 hours ago, Seth said:

Mike-

Thank you for this topic. It brings into focus a lot. We may mention it at Mooney Summit - we may even use the poll.

-Seth

I’m not happy at all about the numbers. I knew it was going to be bad but this may be even worse. 3/4 of us personally knew someone killed in an airplane accident. Whether it’s 1 in a 100 or 1:50 or 1:300, it doesn’t matter. Fact is, the number of fatal accidents is high enough that within the limited circle of pilots we manage to personally know (not just someone well we’ve heard of it stories passed around) we experience tragedy. 

I envy the people who answered that they never knew someone who perished in an airplane or better yet don’t even know someone who else who personally knew. I hope they were able to answer such without being low time pilots or knowing few people. But, by the looks of things it seems inevitable that sooner or later they’ll be pulled over to the dark side whether they want to or not.

The accident rate is just too high if so many of us know people that perished in airplanes. I know some folks said they know lots of people that perished in cars and bikes and stuff, but I don’t. Perhaps the number of accidents between modes of transport are similar but aviation is far more fatal and less forgiving.

The only silver lining that I can see from this poll is that we know much fewer Mooney fatalities than overall. Yet, there’s a lot more other kinds of airplanes for friends to get in trouble in. But, I would think as a community we’d be more familiar with people who fly out brand. I have much more face time and familiarity with other Mooney pilots than other airplane pilots.

We can’t go preventing all aviation accidents. But, if groups like Mooney Summit can prevent even just a few in the Mooney community, that will still make a big impact on the overall aviation community. It has to start somewhere. 

[1964-M20E]

Up until about 6 years ago I was able to say no to all three questions.  Now unfortunately, I have to answer yes to #1 three times. 

[steingar]

Of course we all know someone who bought it.  We're a really tight-knit community.  My friend Claire got dead from density altitude, something that can really hit us flatlands when we fly out West. Claire was one of the leaders of our EAA chapter, all the local pilots in the chapter knew him.  He was in charge of the photography at Oshkosh, lottos folks there knew him.  I wouldn't argue that GA is dangerous, the two words that should never be put together are amateur and pilot.  But the fact that we all know dead people isn't measure of that.

[ohdub]

45 minutes ago, 201er said:

I’m not happy at all about the numbers. I knew it was going to be bad but this may be even worse. 3/4 of us personally knew someone killed in an airplane accident. Whether it’s 1 in a 100 or 1:50 or 1:300, it doesn’t matter. Fact is, the number of fatal accidents is high enough that within the limited circle of pilots we manage to personally know (not just someone well we’ve heard of it stories passed around) we experience tragedy. 

I envy the people who answered that they never knew someone who perished in an airplane or better yet don’t even know someone who else who personally knew. I hope they were able to answer such without being low time pilots or knowing few people. But, by the looks of things it seems inevitable that sooner or later they’ll be pulled over to the dark side whether they want to or not.

The accident rate is just too high if so many of us know people that perished in airplanes. I know some folks said they know lots of people that perished in cars and bikes and stuff, but I don’t. Perhaps the number of accidents between modes of transport are similar but aviation is far more fatal and less forgiving.

The only silver lining that I can see from this poll is that we know much fewer Mooney fatalities than overall. Yet, there’s a lot more other kinds of airplanes for friends to get in trouble in. But, I would think as a community we’d be more familiar with people who fly out brand. I have much more face time and familiarity with other Mooney pilots than other airplane pilots.

We can’t go preventing all aviation accidents. But, if groups like Mooney Summit can prevent even just a few in the Mooney community, that will still make a big impact on the overall aviation community. It has to start somewhere. 

I think that the importance of this thread is to remind ourselves that there is risk in what we do and that we must remain vigilant. 

But I think that you may despair too much at the numbers @201er. The aviation world is small, we all know a lot of fellow aviators. Perhaps when you look at the number of people who responded that they personally know a pilot who had a fatal accident, you assume that those are all separate events? I suspect that there is some, if not significant overlap. The same accident may be counted several times. In the case of knowing someone who knew someone, I would bet that there is significant overlap in those numbers; we just all know each other. I've been trying to think of all the pilot's I've know over the years and I'm sure the number is over 100, it may well be for you too. Ask the average non aviation person how many pilots they know and many would likely answer zero.

[Seth]

Plus the internet has connected a lot of us who wouldn’t necessarily have know each other. It was the NJ fly ins where I met one Mooney deceased and a formation flying clinic in WV where I met another. He flew in from Canada.

Not that we like to compare, but how many people do we know similarity who perished in an automobile accident?

As noted, it’s hard when we do get to know each other through Mooneyspace, leading to fly ins, breakfasts, lunches, Mooney Summit, Caravan, Oshkosh - I’m glad I’ve had the chance to meet all of you.

Believe it or not the stat drops considerably if you are active in a type group attempting to be safer. So just participating in this discussion makes you statistically a safer pilot!

-Seth

 

 

 

 

[Hank]

I know more people killed in cars than airplanes. I know more people killed on motorcycles than in cars.

Go out to "know someone who knows someone" and the count for card and motorcycles explodes. I even know a pilot killed on a motorcycle. 

One thing to say about aviation accidents:  far fewer are the result of someone else doing something wrong. I know LOTS of people whose vehicle accidents were because of someone else:  car coming the other way crossing the yellow line is far too common . . . . The driver doing right suffers from no fault of their own. This is rare in aviation accidents. 

Fly safe out there . . . . .

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

I count 10; I probably could think of more given a little effort.  7 of them came within a year or two in the Navy; 4 in an EA-6B lost at sea.  The latest was 4-5 years ago, a DPE on an ATP checkride.

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Of course we all know someone who bought it. ... I wouldn't argue that GA is dangerous, the two words that should never be put together are amateur and pilot.  But the fact that we all know dead people isn't measure of that.

That is right in my opinion.  It may be surprising as we weren't expecting it perhaps, but maybe it is not mathematically surprising in that it makes sense to me.

I have also known people directly who have died in so many other tragic ways it is very depressing to think about.  Driving, guns, snowmobiles.  Particularly driving I have known several, really more than just a handful.  Driving is safer per hour, but pretty much everyone does it, and they do it a lot, and it is not completely safe.  And for people I know who know people, don't forget more mundane activities like sitting in your house that may burn down, or falling down stairs which I also know of such cases.  The modern expectation that we grow old and died at 102 is admirable and knock on wood for all of us, and I hope, but maybe we more commonly had an expectation and acquaintance with tragedy even a hundred years ago.

28 minutes ago, Hank said:

I know more people killed in cars than airplanes.

Oh boy, me too.  Horribly.  From a mom driving to pick up my best friend in high school, a mom who would bake us cookies while we played games, to students I have taught in my classes, more than once this scenario, to people I have known but less directly but definitely knew, cars are no joke.  And not meaning to compare the per hour risk (which is definitely much lower) or the per year risk (which I don't have the heart to compute), but anyway, the "I know someone" metric is interesting, and relevant, but we are expecting too much of it if we wish it to be so rare that none of us know someone in our favorite activities that has had horrible problems.

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

I count 10; I probably could think of more given a little effort.  7 of them came within a year or two in the Navy; 4 in an EA-6B lost at sea.  The latest was 4-5 years ago, a DPE on an ATP checkride.

I am amazed when I learn about the military operations and how difficult they are, that it is not even worse.  God bless you all.  I know of one military helicopter training mission that ended horribly for all on lost souls on board.  Technically this is not GA flying though right?  But I am very interested to learn your feedback here.  I am amazed also at the fatality rate in WWII of young fighter pilots with just a few hours under their belt sent off to battle.  That survival rate was shocking.

The DPE who checked me out died in an accident that was definitely one of bad decision making, scud running in the mountains below icing and they hit a maintain.  He was wonderful and gave very wise advise that I still carry and use.  I take this therefore as proof that if even he could make bad decisions sometimes then I better double down since we might all make bad decisions if we are not especially vigilant.  Humans are flawed.  I am a human.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

Yes, Yes, No. In 1986 my girlfriend's (at the time) parents and her dad's CFII were killed during an instrument training flight in the Seattle area. CFIT in IMC conditions.

In 1995, my CFII and his student died the same way near the Hayward, CA airport at night.

Both very sad losses for me and many others.

[MooneyMitch]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

Perhaps the number of accidents between modes of transport are similar but aviation is far more fatal and less forgiving

I apologize if I missed the statistics and charts in this thread regarding motorcycle fatalities....... but the above statement struck me.

I rarely here of a motorcycle crash that’s not fatal, and two wheeled crashes are definitely not forgiving.

Regardless, this thread is excellent for raising awareness of just how fragile and vulnerable we’re all really are.

 

[Oldguy]

I made a error on the third question and hit "No" by mistake. Need to change the count by-1 on the "No" and +1 on the "Yes".

[AerostarDriver]

Never lost a friend in a Mooney but lost quite a few for being in aviation for such a short time.
One in a Queen Air just out of KLZU. One in an RV who got in a spin at night in an RV-7 and did not recover. Two during Airshows, one at PDK and one in China.

The lessons I learned from these where simple:

• Proficiency is not the same recentency 
• Flying an airplane that has been sitting without a preflight will kill you
• You can absolutely outfly your skillset and knowledge with the false confidence a nice panel can give you.
• Engine failures at low altitudes will kill you if you don't get the nose down
• Maneuvers have minimum altitudes for a reason, it never hurts to add 1 or 2K more for the unexpected.

It is also worth noting that none of them where low time pilots, in fact, the average hour count was around 8000 hours, All of them having at least 700 hours time in type. 

Edited January 11, 2021 by AerostarDriver

[steingar]

Scotty Crossfield, as good a pilot as there ever was, died because he flew into a thunderstorm.  Anyone can make a bad decision.  The trick is not to.