Speed Merchant Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 I am replacing the KAP-150 in my 84 J model with a GFC-500. A buddy of mine wants to install the removed KAP-150 in a 231 he is buying the has a Mitchell autopilot without altitude hold. He asked an avionics shop about doing the install. They told him they could not legally install it. I think if a autopilot or any other STC was installed on the production line on a product( in this case an airplane 231) that product can be installed on the same product without an STC. Anyone have experience doing this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 38 minutes ago, Speed Merchant said: I am replacing the KAP-150 in my 84 J model with a GFC-500. A buddy of mine wants to install the removed KAP-150 in a 231 he is buying the has a Mitchell autopilot without altitude hold. He asked an avionics shop about doing the install. They told him they could not legally install it. I think if a autopilot or any other STC was installed on the production line on a product( in this case an airplane 231) that product can be installed on the same product without an STC. Anyone have experience doing this? No 231's I know of had Mitchell Autopilots. Until the last couple years they had Century 21, 31 and 41 and King KFC200s. In 1984 and 1985 you could also get a KAP150 or a KFC150. Whether it's legal or not, no installer with a conscience would spend the hours to do a "new" install of 40 year old technology. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeBee Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 The real issue is the manufacturer is required to track to whom it issues STC and sometimes, the aircraft S/N and registration. For the shop to do the job they would have to go to the STC holder and request issuance of the STC to that aircraft. Then the appropriate AFM supplements (as revised) and ICA have to be delivered. It is not as simple as just slapping it in the airplane because it is approved for another aircraft even if it is the same make and model. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 This sounds right to me. When I had a Diamond DA40, I had one of the rare no autopilot examples. I got it for a fantastic deal - so it seemed - in 2007 right at the bottom of the great recession. And the school I was renting from went out of business and so if I would keep flying I had to buy something and I bought the pretty airplane a bit too quickly not knowing what i was doing. When I looked into adding the KAP140 which was the OEM autopilot at the time for my 2003 DA40 - I couldn't do it. There was no STC'ed install instructions and so not even a service center could do it. In the world of autopilots I guess you can't just improvise. The factory in London Ontario was allowed to do it, but they didn't want to. When I asked them they started trying to sell me on a different airplane. Which they succeeded in doing. I sold my DA40 and bought a Mooney. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted December 28, 2020 Report Share Posted December 28, 2020 (edited) As GeeBee said above the STC is airframe specific and can not be transferred without permission from the STC holder - usually for a fee. But why? The installation cost of the BK KAP-150 is going to very neat the same number of hours as the install for your GFC-500 - that's a lot of time and money. Can't imagine someone investing that in an older AP when it makes much more sense to spend those labor $ on a new much more reliable and far more capable AP. I don't think your friend realizes how expensive the labor will be even after he gets the STC transferred. In addition to labor the K computer has a different logic chip and servo part numbers may be slightly different between J & K installations. The servo's can likely be reconfigured but the he'd probably have to find a used ebay computer to get the proper logic chip for the K. (He can check the IPCs between the J and K model to confirm these differences in part #'s). Edited December 28, 2020 by kortopates 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 3 hours ago, kortopates said: As GeeBee said above the STC is airframe specific and can not be transferred without permission from the STC holder - usually for a fee. But why? The installation cost of the BK KAP-150 is going to very neat the same number of hours as the install for your GFC-500 - that's a lot of time and money. Can't imagine someone investing that in an older AP when it makes much more sense to spend those labor $ on a new much more reliable and far more capable AP. I don't think your friend realizes how expensive the labor will be even after he gets the STC transferred. In addition to labor the K computer has a different logic chip and servo part numbers may be slightly different between J & K installations. The servo's can likely be reconfigured but the he'd probably have to find a used ebay computer to get the proper logic chip for the K. (He can check the IPCs between the J and K model to confirm these differences in part #'s). Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: No 231's I know of had Mitchell Autopilots. Until the last couple years they had Century 21, 31 and 41 and King KFC200s. In 1984 and 1985 you could also get a KAP150 or a KFC150. Whether it's legal or not, no installer with a conscience would spend the hours to do a "new" install of 40 year old technology. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 29, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said: No 231's I know of had Mitchell Autopilots. Until the last couple years they had Century 21, 31 and 41 and King KFC200s. In 1984 and 1985 you could also get a KAP150 or a KFC150. Whether it's legal or not, no installer with a conscience would spend the hours to do a "new" install of 40 year old technology. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerodon Posted December 29, 2020 Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 Let me put an alternative view forward for discussion. I don't think there is or was an STC for the KAP150 in a Mooney. BK would have worked with Mooney to install it in a 231 and it was approved equipment in a certain range of models. Therefore, if you have enough information and parts, just install it as approved equipment and use the part of the AFM and its supplements to use it? You would take this approach in installing say an O2 system or any other factory option? I agree, if it was an STC, you would have difficulty in getting a permission letter. Is it wise to install a KAP150 - I'd say not. Is it wise to install a KFC150, I'd say maybe depending how much of the system you could get? Some people just don't have the $25k for a new autopilot. A long time ago, I had a KAP200 upgraded to a KFC200. We just changed out all the parts that were different, all the wiring was already in place so it was almost plug n play. Aerodon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted December 29, 2020 Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 There are some nice things that come with the KAP150... follows a heading, or a course... holds altitude can be set to climb or descend in chunks of 100fpm... It is a digital box... The only thing that failed on mine in 26 years was a light bulb... Probably some not so nice things as well... Servos start to show wear OHs aren’t low cost... lots of hours to install... Nice to add... Altitude target... GPSS... Left over question.... How would the old AP get tuned for being installed in the new 2it plane? PP thoughts only, I have a KAP150 in the O1... A new GFC500 would be a moderate improvement, and reset the clock on all the wear... all the tuning is done... any issues, you won’t be fighting alone... Just think what the cost of not putting an AP into a DA40 was... their community lost a cornerstone to ours.... Go MS! PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted December 29, 2020 Report Share Posted December 29, 2020 18 hours ago, Aerodon said: Let me put an alternative view forward for discussion. I don't think there is or was an STC for the KAP150 in a Mooney. I had a King KAP-150 in a 1996 Mooney Bravo, serial #27-0209. Jimmy Garrison later upgraded it to a KFC150 to get the Flight Director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerodon Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 Lance I'm probably not making myself very clear, I'm not saying that KAP and KFC150's are not found in Mooneys, I am saying they are installed at the factory as part of the Type Certificate, not by STC. I could be wrong? Sometimes TC's are very clear on 'installed equipment and options', sometimes not. And sometimes manufacturers will install STC'd equipment on a new plane using an STC developed by others. I am not sure what the paperwork would look like. I'm looking at the paperwork for a 252. There is an application for Airworthiness Certificate which lists all the equipment installed by the factory. Including KFC150 and Speed brakes. We know the speed brakes could be installed later using the manufacturers STC, along with a permission letter and amendment for the AFM. But there is nothing in this paperwork except for the fact that it left the factory with speed brakes. I have a Super Cub project - Cubs are notorious for having aftermarket STC's installed with a photo copy of the paperwork, and no original STC. I am being meticulous with my rebuild. In some cases, equipment has been installed, with a 337, accepted by the FAA. I am taking this as adequate and including the equipment in my rebuild. In other cases, some significant mods have been 'included' in a previous rebuild with no particular 337 reference or approval. I deal with these by either removing the equipment or contacting the STC holder and buying new paperwork. Don 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 My M20J came from the factory with a KAP150. The KAP150 is not listed on the TC, so I presume that the factory installed it under STC. Legally, to apply an STC you need a letter from the STC holder granting permission to apply the STC to your airplane. Skip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 4 hours ago, PT20J said: My M20J came from the factory with a KAP150. The KAP150 is not listed on the TC, so I presume that the factory installed it under STC. Legally, to apply an STC you need a letter from the STC holder granting permission to apply the STC to your airplane. Skip Mine also came from the factory with a KAP 150, but before delivery they installed it to replace the original Century 31. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 21 hours ago, Aerodon said: Lance I'm probably not making myself very clear, I'm not saying that KAP and KFC150's are not found in Mooneys, I am saying they are installed at the factory as part of the Type Certificate, not by STC. I could be wrong? Sometimes TC's are very clear on 'installed equipment and options', sometimes not. And sometimes manufacturers will install STC'd equipment on a new plane using an STC developed by others. I am not sure what the paperwork would look like. I'm looking at the paperwork for a 252. There is an application for Airworthiness Certificate which lists all the equipment installed by the factory. Including KFC150 and Speed brakes. We know the speed brakes could be installed later using the manufacturers STC, along with a permission letter and amendment for the AFM. But there is nothing in this paperwork except for the fact that it left the factory with speed brakes. I have a Super Cub project - Cubs are notorious for having aftermarket STC's installed with a photo copy of the paperwork, and no original STC. I am being meticulous with my rebuild. In some cases, equipment has been installed, with a 337, accepted by the FAA. I am taking this as adequate and including the equipment in my rebuild. In other cases, some significant mods have been 'included' in a previous rebuild with no particular 337 reference or approval. I deal with these by either removing the equipment or contacting the STC holder and buying new paperwork. Don I think you are barking up the wrong STC tree. I think if you were the factory then you probably could install it. and it would be added to the Equipment List. I think the question is if the system is TSO. This is the path for the KX-155. There is not really a STC to add them. It's also not the Type Certificate. It's probably more like the Potter Brumsfiled relay. If you are the factory you can buy it from Mcmaster Carr and put a part number on it and it's legal. If you are joe blow it does not seem as legal for some strange FAA reasoning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 And no it is not worth the effort or time or money. Give it to your friend let him sell it on ebay and use the money for something technology recent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 Just now, Yetti said: I think you are barking up the wrong STC tree. I think if you were the factory then you probably could install it. and it would be added to the Equipment List. I think the computer question is if the system is TSO. This is the path for the KX-155. There is not really a STC to add them. It's also not the Type Certificate. It's probably more like the Potter Brumsfiled relay. If you are the factory you can buy it from Mcmaster Carr and put a part number on it and it's legal. If you are joe blow it does not seem as legal for some strange FAA reasoning. I think you are right for something TSO'd. I'm not sure about an autopilot though. I think that requires an STC because each installation is different. For instance, there are two plug in modules that program the KC191 computer and they are specific for each airplane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PT20J Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Yetti said: And no it is not worth the effort or time or money. Give it to your friend let him sell it on ebay and use the money for something technology recent. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted December 30, 2020 Report Share Posted December 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, PT20J said: I think you are right for something TSO'd. I'm not sure about an autopilot though. I think that requires an STC because each installation is different. For instance, there are two plug in modules that program the KC191 computer and they are specific for each airplane. I think you are more right because it is an auto pilot. I do have a serial number specific manual from Brittain for my Accutrac. Got it after Brittain fixed it about 5 years ago. I think AP are different in the regs. The person who created this mess at the FAA has probably retired. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/28/2020 at 3:44 PM, LANCECASPER said: No 231's I know of had Mitchell Autopilots. Until the last couple years they had Century 21, 31 and 41 and King KFC200s. In 1984 and 1985 you could also get a KAP150 or a KFC150. Whether it's legal or not, no installer with a conscience would spend the hours to do a "new" install of 40 year old technology. No going to happen as it turns out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/28/2020 at 3:44 PM, LANCECASPER said: No 231's I know of had Mitchell Autopilots. Until the last couple years they had Century 21, 31 and 41 and King KFC200s. In 1984 and 1985 you could also get a KAP150 or a KFC150. Whether it's legal or not, no installer with a conscience would spend the hours to do a "new" install of 40 year old technology. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/28/2020 at 3:44 PM, LANCECASPER said: No 231's I know of had Mitchell Autopilots. Until the last couple years they had Century 21, 31 and 41 and King KFC200s. In 1984 and 1985 you could also get a KAP150 or a KFC150. Whether it's legal or not, no installer with a conscience would spend the hours to do a "new" install of 40 year old technology. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/28/2020 at 10:00 PM, carusoam said: There are some nice things that come with the KAP150... follows a heading, or a course... holds altitude can be set to climb or descend in chunks of 100fpm... It is a digital box... The only thing that failed on mine in 26 years was a light bulb... Probably some not so nice things as well... Servos start to show wear OHs aren’t low cost... lots of hours to install... Nice to add... Altitude target... GPSS... Left over question.... How would the old AP get tuned for being installed in the new 2it plane? PP thoughts only, I have a KAP150 in the O1... A new GFC500 would be a moderate improvement, and reset the clock on all the wear... all the tuning is done... any issues, you won’t be fighting alone... Just think what the cost of not putting an AP into a DA40 was... their community lost a cornerstone to ours.... Go MS! PP thoughts only, not a mechanic... Best regards, -a- Not happening thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/28/2020 at 5:43 PM, kortopates said: As GeeBee said above the STC is airframe specific and can not be transferred without permission from the STC holder - usually for a fee. But why? The installation cost of the BK KAP-150 is going to very neat the same number of hours as the install for your GFC-500 - that's a lot of time and money. Can't imagine someone investing that in an older AP when it makes much more sense to spend those labor $ on a new much more reliable and far more capable AP. I don't think your friend realizes how expensive the labor will be even after he gets the STC transferred. In addition to labor the K computer has a different logic chip and servo part numbers may be slightly different between J & K installations. The servo's can likely be reconfigured but the he'd probably have to find a used ebay computer to get the proper logic chip for the K. (He can check the IPCs between the J and K model to confirm these differences in part #'s). Thank you it is not going to happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Merchant Posted December 31, 2020 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/28/2020 at 9:34 PM, Aerodon said: Let me put an alternative view forward for discussion. I don't think there is or was an STC for the KAP150 in a Mooney. BK would have worked with Mooney to install it in a 231 and it was approved equipment in a certain range of models. Therefore, if you have enough information and parts, just install it as approved equipment and use the part of the AFM and its supplements to use it? You would take this approach in installing say an O2 system or any other factory option? I agree, if it was an STC, you would have difficulty in getting a permission letter. Is it wise to install a KAP150 - I'd say not. Is it wise to install a KFC150, I'd say maybe depending how much of the system you could get? Some people just don't have the $25k for a new autopilot. A long time ago, I had a KAP200 upgraded to a KFC200. We just changed out all the parts that were different, all the wiring was already in place so it was almost plug n play. Aerodon We were going to take the approved equipment approach- but the deal fell through. Thank you for your time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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