Configuration Warnings

[Blue on Top]

Thinking about some recent Facebook post, What are all y'all's thoughts on configuration warnings, for example:

1. "Takeoff Warning" - flaps in the wrong position, speed brakes out, etc?
2. "Landing Gear Warning" - Based on throttle position (some say manifold pressure, but it is really throttle position), flap position (full (landing) flaps without the gear down), etc?
3. Different stall warning?
4. Different landing gear warning?
5. Etc? (you name it.

Just getting some ideas to look at why (fatal) accidents happen … from a total aviation geek's perspective  

Pull!

[carusoam]

Add some specifics to the warning...

In the 60s, we got two types of warnings...

1) beeeeeeeep....

2) beeep beeep beeep......

The 90s, gave us another warning...

3) beeep...

 

One is a warning I get that a nice squeaker landing is about to occur.... unless I’m six feet above the runway when it occurs...

The other is a warning of impending crunching doom....

The third occurs when the KLN90B senses passing through 900’agl...  is that a gumps reminder?

For about $100 worth of parts... these warnings could be speaking an easy to understand language...

Expect in the new millennium... we will get terrain and traffic warnings... and the possibility of loud chirps... from the CO alarm

 

In a stressful part of the flight... if anything beeps, I lower the nose first... then figure out what that sound was... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Blue on Top]

@carusoam  I'm just glad that you didn't say, "Beeeep.  Beep." because that would be the Road Runner passing you.  .  Thanks for the good feedback.

[carusoam]

Or a Donna Summer fan...

https://genius.com/Donna-summer-bad-girls-lyrics  

 

-a-

[Ibra]

7 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

Just getting some ideas to look at why (fatal) accidents happen … from a total aviation geek's perspective

There are too much warnings and things to watch for already, maybe combine all of those warnings with aircraft config and flight data into one number for the pilot: probability/severity of an accident? or give "predictive warnings": remind me to put gear down at 2000ft agl go straight to the ear, warning at 50ft agl may go missed or just make things worse than landing gear up?

One wants to know about how much margins are left and the earlier the better, not just those binary signals in last minute: if I ever get 500ft agl terrain warning when I am not expecting it, I am surely 95% dead irrespective of my cockpit actions in a GA aircraft

Also two things comes to my mind,

- Accidents are easy to explain after the facts but hard to predict on live data (a truth )

- Geeks who try to put all flying in "bulbs & switches" are really bad at flying (a joke )

Edited February 21, 2020 by Ibra

[N201MKTurbo]

It doesn’t look like anything on your list would cause a fatal accident in a Mooney. 

You can take off and land with the flaps set anywhere.

Most of the rest are more of a hazard to your wallet than your health.

The one you are missing is applying takeoff power with the trim full nose up.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

It doesn’t look like anything on your list would cause a fatal accident in a Mooney. 

You can take off and land with the flaps set anywhere.

Most of the rest are more of a hazard to your wallet than your health.

The one you are missing is applying takeoff power with the trim full nose up.

Applying takeoff power with the full flaps can be exciting, whether on the ground for takeoff or doing a missed approach / go around. Very strong nose up forces result, and you need to stiff arm the yoke while adjusting trim (our Vintage planes have manual trim, not a thumb switch).

[Blue on Top]

4 hours ago, Ibra said:

1. There are too much warnings and things to watch for already, maybe combine all of those warnings with aircraft config and flight data into one number for the pilot: probability/severity of an accident? or give "predictive warnings": remind me to put gear down at 2000ft agl go straight to the ear, warning at 50ft agl may go missed or just make things worse than landing gear up?

2. One wants to know about how much margins are left and the earlier the better, not just those binary signals in last minute: if I ever get 500ft agl terrain warning when I am not expecting it, I am surely 95% dead irrespective of my cockpit actions in a GA aircraft

Also two things comes to my mind,

3. - Accidents are easy to explain after the facts but hard to predict on live data (a truth )

4. - Geeks who try to put all flying in "bulbs & switches" are really bad at flying (a joke )

@Ibra  Great observations!  Thank you.

1.  100% agree.  TMI --> overload --> ignoring warning

2. This is a fantastic observation.  I agree 100%.  Some things are binary, but your idea is great.

3. True, but people should be working on that … and learning from the past.  What where the chain links that led to the accident?  How can we break a link?  We do a lot of this in flight test.

4. LOL (and I agree with you).  On the other hand, if humans and electrons are both 95% reliable, the odds of them failing at the same point in time is really, really low.  Fuel starvation is a good example (starvation is that engine quit, but there is still fuel on board … like in the other tank).

Thank you again!  Great observations.

[Blue on Top]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You can take off and land with the flaps set anywhere.

The one you are missing is applying takeoff power with the trim full nose up.

@N201MKTurbo  Thank you!  Wonderful observation.  You are correct.  … I knew I wouldn't think of all of them  

If a pilot would takeoff with the flaps full (landing configuration), would the force be high?  … to a new to this aircraft pilot?

Edited February 21, 2020 by Blue on Top

[Blue on Top]

24 minutes ago, Hank said:

Applying takeoff power with the full flaps can be exciting, whether on the ground for takeoff or doing a missed approach / go around. Very strong nose up forces result, and you need to stiff arm the yoke while adjusting trim (our Vintage planes have manual trim, not a thumb switch).

@Hank  Great observation!  ASTM and FAA are looking into this to potentially modify the regulations/compliance to the regulations.  The go-around is a major point of interest as is is causing a large percentage of the fatal stall/spin/spiral accidents.  Thank you!

[larryb]

These are all features that I wish Garmin would add to the GTN box. With the addition of a couple GPIO (General Purpose IO) pins tied to gear position and flap position these warnings would be trivial to add.

The GTN already knows when you are lined up on a runway ready for takeoff. It could annunciate "Check flap position" if you taxi out on the runway with flaps not in the takeoff position.

The GTN knows when you landing at an airport. It knows you height above ground.  It could annunciate "Check gear" if your gear is still up and you are on final approach to an airport and < 500' AGL. Same for flap position.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, Blue on Top said:

Fuel starvation is a good example (starvation is that engine quit, but there is still fuel on board … like in the other tank).

This one touches my heart, it does go binary: I was flying C172 close to 70% of max range and leaving 15USG reserves, I was expecting 30kts headwinds but actually flew in 40kts-60kts

Quick cockpit math question: how much max range changes with 60kts instead of 30kts headwinds? in the M20J it is -30% while in the C172 it is -60%

My rough answer back then was: got 15USG reserves, did this before and C172 is like a walk in the park, note that I have flown 70% max range in Mooney many times and it never felt fuel would be an issue but 3 things were different 1/ fast cruise speed so range is less sensitive to headwinds, 2/ it had a fuel totaliser and 3/ I know actual performance while in that C172 flight was done on POH numbers and inaccurate gauges that suddenly showed zero also glad to go stay high altitude IFR in 40kts headwinds rather than trying to fix it going low level VFR in 20kts winds, the good news C172 lands slowly anywhere especially into strong winds and with no fuel onboard....

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The one you are missing is applying takeoff power with the trim full nose up.

Yes, Go-Around and Full flaps Take-Off points are really valid points: one would expect all aircraft to be able to takeoff in reasonable runway distance with full flaps without too much stick forces and also can be flown in any trim/power position in slow speed range VS0-1.3*VS0, something even more valid for aircraft with electric trim/flaps only !

[Blue on Top]

31 minutes ago, Ibra said:

3/ I know actual performance while in that C172 flight was done on POH numbers and inaccurate gauges that suddenly showed zero also glad to go stay high altitude IFR in 40kts headwinds rather than trying to fix it going low level VFR in 20kts winds, the good news C172 lands slowly anywhere especially into strong winds and with no fuel onboard....

Yes, Go-Around and Full flaps Take-Off points are really valid points: one would expect all aircraft to be able to takeoff in reasonable runway distance with full flaps without too much stick forces and also can be flown in any trim/power position in slow speed range VS0-1.3*VS0, something even more valid for aircraft with electric trim/flaps only !

@Ibra  Everyone is making good points.  I especially like the fuel quantity and full flaps comments, but ALL points are very valid.

My fuel story (and it is like hundreds of others).  Bringing my "new to me" 1963  P172D (C175) home to Wichita from Atlanta.  Nearly 4 hours into the flight (over an overcast, but with a C182 chase plane).  It finally dawned on me after the second reminder from chase, that I was LOW on fuel.  I remembered then that the endurance numbers in the POHs are NO RESERVE.  Fortunately, I landed safely (probably not enough fuel to go-around), and then added more than the usable fuel …. the first time I fueled the airplane.  Live and learn.

[flyboy0681]

15 hours ago, carusoam said:

Add some specifics to the warning...

In the 60s, we got two types of warnings...

1) beeeeeeeep....

2) beeep beeep beeep......

 

I'm a big fan of WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP     WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP      WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP

And

TERRAIN TERRAIN TERRAIN

 

And my GTN gives me "DON'T SHINK "

[N201MKTurbo]

Distance doesn’t matter for endurance unless you are over the ocean. Only time. When you run out of time you need to land and buy fuel.

[kpaul]

19 hours ago, Blue on Top said:

Thinking about some recent Facebook post, What are all y'all's thoughts on configuration warnings, for example:

1. "Takeoff Warning" - flaps in the wrong position, speed brakes out, etc?
2. "Landing Gear Warning" - Based on throttle position (some say manifold pressure, but it is really throttle position), flap position (full (landing) flaps without the gear down), etc?
3. Different stall warning?
4. Different landing gear warning?
5. Etc? (you name it.

Just getting some ideas to look at why (fatal) accidents happen … from a total aviation geek's perspective  

Pull!

Many more complex aircraft have all or a lot of these built in. 

In the Beech 400 I fly:

If your speed brakes are extended and you advance the throttles to takeoff power the speed brakes retract.  Also with the speed brakes out if you configure full flap they retract.

It has an annoying gear warning, based on throttle position, but it can be silenced with a button on the yoke.  It does activate a light on the glare shield stating such.

The on board GPWS gives both a Too Low Gear and or Flaps at about 500' AGL.  The flaps can be overridden if you do a partial or no flap landing.

It has a shaker and stall warning based on AOA.  The shaker is well prior to stall warn, which also occurs prior to actual stall.

If the throttles are advanced to the take off position and the trim is not set you get a warning tone,  there are also glare shield lights that show if the trim is up, down or in t/o position in addition to the trim indicator on the panel.

 

To my knowledge we have never had a gear up in the aircraft and they are flown at 5 locations training 80ish hour pilots.  We even do touch and go's.  But as mentioned in another thread we also make a gear down radio call prior to each landing, and checklist discipline is a huge portion of the training program.  Also, one of the two pilots is an instructor, whos job is on the line everyday, so while minor mistakes are tolerated, major ones are corrected pretty quickly.

 

[Hank]

It's much easier to not make expen$ive mistakes when there's a 2nd pilot watching everything you do . . . Our Mooneys don't have useful load or cockpit space for a permanent Pilot Monitoring. Besides, my wife likes to ride up front, too.

How about comparing against another single-pilot plane?

Edited February 22, 2020 by Hank

[Hank]

38 minutes ago, kpaul said:

To my knowledge we have never had a gear up in the aircraft and they are flown at 5 locations training 80ish hour pilots.  We even do touch and go's.

I started flying my Mooney as a 62-hour pilot, and completed transition training and made my first trip with my wife as an 80-ish hour pilot. No 2nd pilot watching me like a hawk. No automation besides two buzzers. Twelve-plus years, no gear up landings yet  . . . . .

[Yetti]

 

[PT20J]

Too many beeps already. No more, please.

Modern technology is capable of intelligible speech. I prefer something that mimics a respectful copilot: “Perhaps you might consider lowering the landing gear, Sir.” 

Skip

[Andy95W]

45 minutes ago, PT20J said:

 “Perhaps you might consider lowering the landing gear, Sir.” 

 

 

[Yetti]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Too many beeps already. No more, please.

Modern technology is capable of intelligible speech. I prefer something that mimics a respectful copilot: “Perhaps you might consider lowering the landing gear, Sir.” 

Skip

It's somewhat disconcerting to hear the "arriving at destination"   It's a battle of who is in control.   My friend put a Lynx in his 310 which gives you target direction and distance audio.   He is a former fighter pilot so to test it he went and started engaging targets.   Which I am sure freaked the targets as they were watching their ADSB.   Probably good wake up.      There is a task saturation point that needs to be understood for each pilot.    I know I shut down to audio in emergency situation and get really task focused.  I don't listen, I just start telling.

 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Yetti

[PT20J]

I've got ADS-B In via a Garmin GTX 345 feeding a GNS 430W, Apsen PFD and Foreflight on an iPad. Foreflight flashes a lot of warnings that aren't really a hazard. The GTX 345 has an audio alert "Traffic, one o'clock high, one mile" that only alerts if it's really important. Nuisance alerts are less than helpful because they train you to ignore them.

Skip

[GeeBee]

What you are talking about is a Part 25 warning system. 

Speed brakes. Part 25 aircraft a killer if deployed. A Mooney will fly and land easily if deployed.

Flaps. Part 25 aircraft essential  to getting airborne. A Mooney will fly.

Trim Part 25 aircraft pilot lacks strength to overcome a mistrim. In an Airbus it actually is very hard because the trim number is in the FMC, but if you did it, the airplane would be uncontollable. Mooney can be managed Not pleasant but manageable.

Parking Brake. Part 25 jet can over come the parking brake with take off thrust before the pilot notices the degraded situation. Not so much in a Mooney. A set parking brake will be noted very early

 

In short there is insufficient kill potential in these items in a Mooney to warrant such systems.

[PT20J]

Remember, every gadget you add increases maintenance cost. Mooney has done a lot of that already: retractable step, PC, electric cowl flaps, LED flap and trim indicators, preselected flap positions. Most don’t really add a lot of utility. The one change from my ‘78 J that I like in my ‘94 is the defrost blower (but I’ve already had to fix the micro switch).

Skip