Bob R Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 I'm taking my commercial on Monday. I just realized my POH not only does not contain a CG envelope, but no decent chart. Any one have one? The DPE is making me do this by hand only. Thanks, Bob Quote
Hank Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 (edited) My 1970 C Owners Manual includes a discussion of CG with some numbers, but there's no graph. Just write down the nunbers, use a calculator and see what pops out. Practice a few times tonight, and compare against your favorite app and the official W&B from your A&P. But what is a "descent chart"??? FWIW, I generally use 500 fpm. There's always that handy Feet-per-Nautical-Mile chart from the back of an approach plate book. No idea where it is when using elecgronic plates . . . . . Do you need a picture? Edited September 14, 2019 by Hank Quote
carusoam Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 You just noticed you don’t have the WnB data..? Back in 65 the WnB data for the Mooney was a loose piece of graph paper tucked into the log book... Important data... just not treated so importantly... Unfortunately, I left my C’s data with its new owner... Stand by for somebody a bit more helpful... Best regards, -a- Quote
Hank Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 The TCDS has many important moment arms, inckuding each seat position on the rail and the hatrack. Don't forget the hatrack . . . Quote
bradp Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 Like engine out glide distance chart (ie LDmax) by weight and altitude? If you can get the CG envelope raw data and stations / arms / weight limits - put it into foreflight or your favorite EFBs weight and balance tab and you’ll derive a WB graph yourself that looks exactly like the later models POH graphs. Quote
Bob R Posted September 14, 2019 Author Report Posted September 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, carusoam said: You just noticed you don’t have the WnB data..? Back in 65 the WnB data for the Mooney was a loose piece of graph paper tucked into the log book... Important data... just not treated so importantly... Unfortunately, I left my C’s data with its new owner... Stand by for somebody a bit more helpful... Best regards, -a- That's not exactly what I said. Of course I have WB data. What I'm saying, is the POH has no envelope as one would expect. I created one in Garmin pilot but this DPE, wants to see it all by hand so the only place I can check the CG, is in my iPad. Quote
Bob R Posted September 14, 2019 Author Report Posted September 14, 2019 I think the DPE is going to have to live with what I have. I've done the whole freaking flight plan, nav log, icao flight plan and all the WB by hand. He will either get over having to plug the numbers I have into GP or not. Bob Quote
Bob R Posted September 14, 2019 Author Report Posted September 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, bradp said: Like engine out glide distance chart (ie LDmax) by weight and altitude? If you can get the CG envelope raw data and stations / arms / weight limits - put it into foreflight or your favorite EFBs weight and balance tab and you’ll derive a WB graph yourself that looks exactly like the later models POH graphs. No, I have the glide ratios. I've seen data, just like the climb and cruise data, which will give gph and such. I guess I could do the math as somebody suggested it'll be really close. Quote
RLCarter Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 I’ll look in an hour when I get home, I did the WnB graph for mine and can change the numbers if they don’t match per the TCDS and send it to you, on your own for the decent portion Quote
carusoam Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 Sounds like it is going to be a long day... Like everything else in aviation testing... cruising through the first few calculations usually gets you to the next level quickly... Stumble on the first calculations... the day gets predictably longer... Good luck with finding the details... I used to keep a set of my most popular WnB situations printed in a binder... Just a few pieces of paper... in case the ramp check happened at the same time my iPad died... Expect showing that you know the calculations to add or subtract a piece of equipment to the plane, then show T/O distance with the new WnB, and with the current weather and DA... what else would you need to depart safely as expected? (PP thoughts only not a CFI) Best regards, -a- Quote
takair Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 There were two manuals that came with the plane. The Pilot Operating Handbook (aka Owners Manual) and the Aircraft Flight Manual. The AFM contained a graph format CG envelope and a manual computation sheet. The POH was a professional looking booklet, likely what you have. The AFM was a crude , 11x8.5 “photo copy” with hand markups and signatures. This is often lost in stacks of old papers, but should actually be with the aircraft. Are you missing that? I have a 1964 E version and a newer version for another aircraft I can send you if you IM me your email. Can’t recall a descent chart. I think I estimated fuel flow. I usually use cruise speed for the speed and figure fuel flow by taking a 5” reduction in MAP. 2 Quote
bradp Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 Ugh. If I had a DPE who made me do hand calculations in this day and age, I’d honestly reconsider that relationship with the DPE. Understanding the principles of a WB calc, sure, very important. Put a calc on the oral if you really want to be old school and see what the student knows. But if the DPE said do everything ‘60s style outside of what’s contained in the PTS just to f with you doesn’t seem to valuable as a learning / testing experience. Quote
RLCarter Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 N9061V Weight&Balance.pdf Looks the same as my 65' according to TCDS, hope this helps 1 Quote
bradp Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 Also I don’t believe there are any time / distance GPH for descent profiles in my POH (early J). It’s usually interpolated from the cruise data. Quote
Andy95W Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 29 minutes ago, takair said: There were two manuals that came with the plane. The Pilot Operating Handbook (aka Owners Manual) and the Aircraft Flight Manual. The AFM contained a graph format CG envelope and a manual computation sheet. The POH was a professional looking booklet, likely what you have. The AFM was a crude , 11x8.5 “photo copy” with hand markups and signatures. This is often lost in stacks of old papers, but should actually be with the aircraft. Are you missing that? I have a 1964 E version and a newer version for another aircraft I can send you if you IM me your email. Can’t recall a descent chart. I think I estimated fuel flow. I usually use cruise speed for the speed and figure fuel flow by taking a 5” reduction in MAP. ⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ This. It sounds like Bob R. is missing his Flight Manual. If your checkride is coming up that soon, you'll probably need someone here at Mooneyspace to scan and email a copy to you to get you by your checkride. It is supposed to be N# specific, but this idea should get you by in a pinch. Quote
RLCarter Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 did they even have Flight Manuals in 68'? When I contacted Mooney for my 65 I was sent a POH and some other stuff but no Flight Manual Quote
carusoam Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 RLC, In Y2K I acquired my 65C... it had been cleaned of every document but the logs... I called Mooney and asked about the proper POH to have... they passed the call to the engineering department, I got to speak with Bill Wheat... Bill had test flown my C and signed its AW page in the first airframe log 35years prior... I got the OM to cover the legal document for the year of the plane... because the FAA demands it... one of the arrow documents... something like 30 pages and the first five are wasted on ‘welcome to the world of Mooney aircraft.... you must be brilliant for selecting a Mooney.... etc...’ I got the most recent POH (1976?) for the M20C... because the data applies to all M20Cs... the latest version was the most complete. So get both... then update it with modern and more complete data that you acquire yourself... (like CNOE did for his plane... he collected engine out glide distance data for his plane.) grab a J POH from the collection to see what data you might want to acquire/adjust to fit to your bird... PP thoughts only, not a mechanic or CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote
takair Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, RLCarter said: did they even have Flight Manuals in 68'? When I contacted Mooney for my 65 I was sent a POH and some other stuff but no Flight Manual Not in the modern sense, but that vintage all had the two “manuals”. The flight manual was highly customized for the serial number. It included the factory weight and balance, equipment list and the standard limitations section. It was FAA (CAA?) approved as well. I suspect Mooney no longer has those originals. I made copies....the original and a copy sits in the safe with the log books, one copy in the airplane. The POH was generic and not specifically approved. It was more like part 2 of a modern POH. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 13 minutes ago, RLCarter said: did they even have Flight Manuals in 68'? When I contacted Mooney for my 65 I was sent a POH and some other stuff but no Flight Manual I’m not sold either... can someone post a picture of the Flight Manual? I have a POH which contains the basic performance charts (takeoff, climb, cruise, landing) and I even have the original weight and balance charts, so there was another manual? And now that I think about it, the FAA renamed AFM to POH or vice versa in the mid 70s... are you sure we had two manuals? Rags 1968 F Quote
Andy95W Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 That's a great question. Yes, absolutely my 1964 has both Manuals. I will take a picture when I have a chance. I thought that was the deal before the actual Pilots Operating Handbook came into existence- there was an Owner's Manual and an Approved Flight Manual appropriately signed off by the factory. I definitely could be wrong. But in that case I don't know when it changed. Quote
Ragsf15e Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, takair said: Not in the modern sense, but that vintage all had the two “manuals”. The flight manual was highly customized for the serial number. It included the factory weight and balance, equipment list and the standard limitations section. It was FAA (CAA?) approved as well. I suspect Mooney no longer has those originals. I made copies....the original and a copy sits in the safe with the log books, one copy in the airplane. The POH was generic and not specifically approved. It was more like part 2 of a modern POH. Interesting, seems mine is taken apart but inserted in a folder with weight and balance data because I have all that. I would guess we’re supposed to be carrying the POH section though since it has the performance data, airspeeds, etc. Quote
Bob R Posted September 14, 2019 Author Report Posted September 14, 2019 5 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said: Interesting, seems mine is taken apart but inserted in a folder with weight and balance data because I have all that. I would guess we’re supposed to be carrying the POH section though since it has the performance data, airspeeds, etc. Well, if anyone would be so kind as to post the Flight Manual, I'd appreciate it Thanks, Bob Quote
RLCarter Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 Mark20E_AFM_WTBAL_HalfSheet.pdf M20E POH.pdf These are what Mooney sent me 1 Quote
Bob R Posted September 14, 2019 Author Report Posted September 14, 2019 46 minutes ago, RLCarter said: Thanks, I will compare it with all the data I have tomorrow. Bob 46 minutes ago, RLCarter said: N9061V Weight&Balance.pdf 16.26 kB · 10 downloads Looks the same as my 65' according to TCDS, hope this helps Quote
carusoam Posted September 14, 2019 Report Posted September 14, 2019 RLC, What Mooney sent you... The ‘POH’ is the OM.... because POHs weren’t defined by the FAA until years later... funny that they named the file POH... The pages from the other AFM file are from a 1974 POH as the pages are dated so... So... for Bob... Be on the lookout for an OM (arow document) an updated POH loaded with most of the pertinent data... (technical calculations for all phases of flight) The third part of the important data will be actual WnB data for the plane that gets used for the flight... PP thoughts only, wish Bill Wheat could still here to explain these details... Best regards, -a- Quote
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