Search Concluded - Mooney Missile

[danb35]

Quote: donshapansky

The comment about the exhaust failing because of LOP operations makes no sense. If you fly it 50 ROP the EGT's will be higher than 50 LOP will result in.

[Magnum]

Quote: M016576

Why is the EGT at 50 ROP higher than 50 LOP? CHT is higher, but EGT?

[DaV8or]

Quote: Magnum

IMHO ROP there is no oxygen left, so the excess fuel can't burn. With LOP there is excess oxygen to support all kinds of reactions.

[Seth]

Thank you all so much for your words MooneySpace - It's nice to hear the vote of confidence in my decision after making such a big decision on a large purchase.  Sorry for the delay - I've been in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Los Angeles, on a mix of business and family obligations.  Unfortunatly, I haven't flown either Mooney (I'm only going to be able to say that for a limited time, but it is fun I must admit), but took the airlines due the distance and time constraints.   I usually fly pretty much anywhere east of the Mississippi Rivier in my F, but now with the Missile - I may even have to start thinking about some longer distnaces.

Useful load:  1066 pounds - and yes, that will increase once I take out the Loran and ADF (anyone know how much that will be approximately?)

Fuel Tanks - It already has the long range tanks - I think 98 useable, but I have to check.  The Missile is in MN right now having some engine work done before I pick her up next month.

Avionics:

This is from memory, but:

KFC 200

Garmin 430W

KX 165

Engine Monitor

Standby Vacum system

Long range tanks

I plan to get a garmin Aera and interconnect it with the 430w.  I had planned to do that if I installed a 430w or 530w in my F.  Also, I will get WX with the Aera, as I fly with WX all the time with the 496 in my F.  I sold the 496 with my F, hence the upgrade to the Aera.  Anyone know of any discounts on the Aera that are out there at this time seeing that it's Oshkosh right now?  I've decided I'll go with the 560.

No GPSS at this point it time, but I may want to add that in time.  I have to research that further.

More details to come as I learn more about the Missile. 

Take care,

-Seth

[AustinChurch]

Quote: donshapansky

The comment about the exhaust failing because of LOP operations makes no sense. If you fly it 50 ROP the EGT's will be higher than 50 LOP will result in.

 

[donshapansky]

I am a graduate of the GAMI pilot's school and I should clarify the parameters for running ROP. Below 8000' you are subject to a never operate zone of 100 ROP to 50 LOP due to operating stresses placed on piston/cylinder wall loading etc. etc. Above 8000' all limitations disappear for all naturally aspirated engines.

The other parameter is fuel flow at full power, that being all EGT's should be below 1300 F preferably 1250 F. In the case of the IO550 you will need to be at 29 - 30 gph is my guess. I bet you that those figures are not in your Rocket Engineering manual.

Case in point, my Rocket Manual for the TSIO-520 said the fuel flow needs to be 33 gph. With that setting my TIT was 1450 - 1500 F way too hot and cylinder head temps soaring to the 400's

My engine man and GAMI both told me to raise the fuel flow to match the maximum manifold pressure I was seeing. My EDM 930 showed 37 - 37.5 in. By raising the fuel flow the TIT dropped to 1280 and the cylinder heads all sit at 350 F or less even on a hot Texas day.

From my mechanical knowlege ( licenced auto, heavy truck and motorcycle) and 1800 hrs of using GAMI products and procedures I will not buy that LOP does exhaust pipe damage. At my current fuel savings of at 6.0 - 7.0 gph I have paid for exhaust system and cylinder replacements several times over.

 

My $.02

[Cruiser]

Quote: AustinChurch

If peak is 1500 degrees and you run 50 ROP (measured by EGT), that would be 1450.  If you run 50 LOP (measrued by EGT), that would be 1450.  So how would the EGT be higher at 50 ROP? 

All I know is I just spent $3700 for a new exhaust and labor.  Since the manufacturer suggests not to run LOP, I think I'll head their advice.  If I want to reduce fuel flow, I'll just pull the RPM's back instead of running LOP. 

 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: donshapansky

I am a graduate of the GAMI pilot's school and I should clarify the parameters for running ROP. Below 8000' you are subject to a never operate zone of 100 ROP to 50 LOP due to operating stresses placed on piston/cylinder wall loading etc. etc. Above 8000' all limitations disappear for all naturally aspirated engines.

The other parameter is fuel flow at full power, that being all EGT's should be below 1300 F preferably 1250 F. In the case of the IO550 you will need to be at 29 - 30 gph is my guess. I bet you that those figures are not in your Rocket Engineering manual.

Case in point, my Rocket Manual for the TSIO-520 said the fuel flow needs to be 33 gph. With that setting my TIT was 1450 - 1500 F way too hot and cylinder head temps soaring to the 400's

My engine man and GAMI both told me to raise the fuel flow to match the maximum manifold pressure I was seeing. My EDM 930 showed 37 - 37.5 in. By raising the fuel flow the TIT dropped to 1280 and the cylinder heads all sit at 350 F or less even on a hot Texas day.

From my mechanical knowlege ( licenced auto, heavy truck and motorcycle) and 1800 hrs of using GAMI products and procedures I will not buy that LOP does exhaust pipe damage. At my current fuel savings of at 6.0 - 7.0 gph I have paid for exhaust system and cylinder replacements several times over.

 

My $.02

[donshapansky]

I have 1800 hours of using GAMI products on 2 different TCM 520's, one normally aspirated and one turbo charged. Both were operated LOP. The Rocket has 850 hrs SMOH now, I got it with 60 SMOH and ran it 700 before removing the cylinders to find corrosion from sitting in FL before I bought it. The overhauled cylinders made a dramatic difference in LOP operations, oil consumption and performance, the ECI cylinders with Cerminil did not show any wear but corrosion had stuck rings on 2 cylinders. I was always getting high normal wear on the oil analysis reports, it also discolored the oil to black within a few hrs and would use oil after 10 - 15 hrs even though the leakdown rates were in the 70's right until teardown. Blowby is not easily detected by doing the leakdown check, the true signs I now know is oil discoloration to black in a few hours. Now the oil stays a golden color and stays at 12 qts. through to change time at 30 hrs. I have installed an M20 air/oil separator, which cleaned the belly up dramatically and keeps the oil in the crankcase.

I would download the GAMI spreadsheet from their website and do the lean test at .2 gal intervals at altitudes of 7 - 8 K. This will tell you if you need to do any injector tuning, you need a digital fuel flow, an engine monitor with TIT info and probably an hour straight and level. After the test, circle the fuel flow and the EGT the first cylinder peaks at, then the fuel flow and the EGT at which cylinder was last to peak, Continue to record all temps until the last cylinder is at least 50 LOP. If the spread is over .5 gph, fax the sheet to GAMI and they will then be able to send the required injectors to be changed .

You can send me a PM if you like for more info.

[Seth]

I'm having the shop in Minnesota that did the pre-buy and is completeing some work for me remove the ADF and Loran (useful load increase) and upgrade the engine monitor to an JPI EDM 830.

More updates to come.

-Seth

[Seth]

FINALLY!  I'm heading to MN on Sunday afternoon, training Monday, and flying 1165N back to Maryland on Tuesday.  It has been a long saga, but the engine is overhauled and should be installed today or tomorrow.  Thanks to everyone for the suggestios in the break in thread.  I'll post some pictures of the updated panel and more information about the flight back and break in process next week.

Question:  The company that overhauled the engine gave a 5 week timeframe, and then ended up delivering it after 9 weeks with no information as to why it was late, and no extra work was needed.  Since it was late, I flew commerical back and forth to Minnesota for a meeting after the 5 week period, and rented the Arrow for a wedding two weeks ago, I'm planning to ask for a discount due to the late delivery (the A&P suggesetd this as it made him look bad that they gave him a timeframe that he gave me and then it was  month late).  Has anyone had any success with this?  Is it even worth pursuing?  I do not wish any bad blood, as I want to ensure I'll get proper service should I need assistance with any warrenty issues, but they did overpromise and underdeliever time wise.  I've always been taught UPOD - Under Promise - Over Deliver.

Take care,

-Seth

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Seth

FINALLY!  I'm heading to MN on Sunday afternoon, training Monday, and flying 1165N back to Maryland on Tuesday.  It has been a long saga, but the engine is overhauled and should be installed today or tomorrow.  Thanks to everyone for the suggestios in the break in thread.  I'll post some pictures of the updated panel and more information about the flight back and break in process next week.

Question:  The company that overhauled the engine gave a 5 week timeframe, and then ended up delivering it after 9 weeks with no information as to why it was late, and no extra work was needed.  Since it was late, I flew commerical back and forth to Minnesota for a meeting after the 5 week period, and rented the Arrow for a wedding two weeks ago, I'm planning to ask for a discount due to the late delivery (the A&P suggesetd this as it made him look bad that they gave him a timeframe that he gave me and then it was  month late).  Has anyone had any success with this?  Is it even worth pursuing?  I do not wish any bad blood, as I want to ensure I'll get proper service should I need assistance with any warrenty issues, but they did overpromise and underdeliever time wise.  I've always been taught UPOD - Under Promise - Over Deliver.

Take care,

-Seth

[74657]

I think you will find that having the engine running PERFECT is worth the extra 4 weeks and travel time.  Some things cannot be rushed.  Overhauling 40K aircraft engines is one of them in my book.  One last thought - say you have an issue in 20 hours.  I'd rather not burn a bridge, especially if you are happy with the work.  You never know when you might need him for warranty work.

Make sure it gets at least 27gph on takeoff.  Watch the oil temps.  220 on climb is fine.  If it gets too much hotter you either need more fuel or have to lower the nose as you will quickly see your oil pressure start to fall off.  For reference, I am burning approx. 20GPH on the climb @ 2500 RPM and my oil stays under 220 and CHT's are under 400. 

[jetdriven]

Powerflow says there is no quantifiable damage done to exhaust as a result of LOP.  Also, all Mooney exhaust is 321 stainless steel.  All of them.

Aerospace welding at OSH says that heat over 1500 degrees (I believe it was that number they gave) leaches out the nickel and causes the exhaust to change properties then burn through the flame tubes.  His advice, dont lean over 1400 degrees, which in a J is like 150 ROP, and 13 GPH.  Save the 1200$ muffler, ruin a set of cylinders and spend 15K extra on fuel in 1000 hours.   

Aside from old wives tales and heresay, there is no evidence that LOP oerations damage exhaust.  The Malibu Mirage and the Cirrus SR22 only allow LOP operations.  Pilots not familiar with that do burn up cylinders, as they cannot run cool enough ROP at high power settings.

Quote: DaV8or

This was discribed to me also as a down side of LOP. Excess oxygen causes increased oxidization of components and could be the reason that some have experienced exhaust system failures running LOP. It may not be so much an issue of heat "burning out" the system as it is just excellerated rusting. Stainless exhaust should help.

[jetdriven]

You won't buy a new powerflow or cylinders until TBO if you run it LOP smoothly, below 75% power (lycoming authorizes peak at 75% power anyways), and keep your CHT below 380-400. 

[jetdriven]

here it is. These guys make exhausts, none of this "my mechanic says that he knows someone who ran his engine too lean and burned up the exhaust" heresay.  Aerospace welding says the muffler only lasts 2000 hours anyways.

from: http://www.powerflowsystems.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52

We have not seen any evidence that LOP operations cause damage to PFS exhaust systems, and I haven’t seen that be the case with stock exhausts, either. Excessive vibration is a far greater concern – so get a dynamic balance and check that periodically. As to burn-through; we haven’t seen anything to support or contradict that thought. Ceramic coating acts to protect the base material, but brings with it other issues to be concerned about (above.)


In the end, my advice would be to get the ceramic coated tailpipe option to avoid the look of a brown pipe.

Darren Tilman
General Manager

[co2bruce]

Beautiful aircraft. Enjoy every second flying.

[Jeev]

WOW!!! Congrats! May I ask how much?

[Seth]

Engine Pic - Looking forward to this weekend.  Question, is the oil fill area on the Missile engine on the left side?  Am I looking at a mirror image of this picture?

 

-Seth

[Parker_Woodruff]

Looks pretty.  Yeah, the front of the engine appears to be at the "top" of the photo.

[74657]

That is not a mirror image.  Oil fill is on the left side. 

[Seth]

Quote: 74657

That is not a mirror image.  Oil fill is on the left side. 

[74657]

Seth-  What cylinders did you end up putting on?

[orangemtl]

Unless I'm dyslexic, my oil filler door is on the left on the Acclaim. "Drivers' side".

[carusoam]

Great picture of Continental engine.

IO-550s have the oil on the pilot side.....

How do you guys like the size and location of the starter and generator?   also a little different from what the O-360 crowd is used to...

Best regards,

-a-