Door handle repair

[EricJ]

15 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Ah, and there's the rub, "IF THE REQUIREMENTS ARE MET."  Absent the original Mooney drawings and/or requirements just how do you plan on establishing that the requirements are, in FACT, met?

There are many presentations and ACs from the FAA on how to do this.   It isn't that hard, and you don't need factory drawings.   The whole idea is to keep the fleet flying in the face of factory closures or excessive end-of-life pricing or just excessive lead times.   All of those things have been cited by the FAA as reasons for an owner to produce a part.   In other words, even if the factory is open and producing parts, if they're too expensive or take too long to get, as far as the FAA is concerned those are legitimate reasons to make your own.

This has been discussed much here or you can do a web search on something like "FAA owner produced parts" and get more info.   

[MikeOH]

8 hours ago, EricJ said:

There are many presentations and ACs from the FAA on how to do this.   It isn't that hard, and you don't need factory drawings.   The whole idea is to keep the fleet flying in the face of factory closures or excessive end-of-life pricing or just excessive lead times.   All of those things have been cited by the FAA as reasons for an owner to produce a part.   In other words, even if the factory is open and producing parts, if they're too expensive or take too long to get, as far as the FAA is concerned those are legitimate reasons to make your own.

This has been discussed much here or you can do a web search on something like "FAA owner produced parts" and get more info.   

Yes.  I am familiar with the ACs and the concept of owner produced parts.  It isn't that hard... for some parts; e.g. skin panel.  It can be very hard for parts such as hardened steel gears in a landing-gear gearbox.  It is pretty clear in all of the FAA references that you have to substantiate how you established that your "owner produced part" meets the original part's design requirements.  Yes, you can have an existing part copied.  However, if you have a worn out gear, just how are you going to establish the proper new limit dimensions?  How about if the gears were case hardened? Maybe the surface hardening has worn through?  Do you know? Do you even know if the entire gear is hardened, or just the surface? Are you going to send out the gears for analysis to determine proper material?

Again, no one is going to care if there is never an issue.  But, since the FACTORY gears have been know to fail (hence the AD for the Part 1 and 2 inspection), just what is going to happen with your insurance when YOUR owner produced gears fail?

No doubt you can find a machine shop to copy the gears and a willing A&P/IA to sign them off as airworthy.  But, the question remains, if they fail and your insurance denies the claim do you think that A&P and machine shop is going to make good on your gear-up repair?

Paranoid?  You bet I am.

Maybe @Parker_Woodruff can comment on how an insurance company would view such a claim.  If he says, "no problem, they'd cover such a gear-up," I'll back off of my paranoia

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, MikeOH said:

 

Maybe @Parker_Woodruff can comment on how an insurance company would view such a claim.  If he says, "no problem, they'd cover such a gear-up," I'll back off of my paranoia

I've never seen any insurance policy exclusions for failure of owner-produced parts.  There are sometimes exclusions for flying an aircraft out of annual inspection (which can be remedied with a ferry permit & letting your insurance company know about it).  But if your A&P/IA signed off on the annual...that's a real plane with a real occurrence that will be covered.

A lot of the insurance paranoia on denied claims is overblown.  If you & your airplane were legal to fly in good faith and you're in compliance with the basic policy provisions (territory, approved pilots, etc.), you really have nothing to worry about. 

[MikeOH]

Just now, Parker_Woodruff said:

I've never seen any insurance policy exclusions for failure of owner-produced parts.  There are sometimes exclusions for flying an aircraft out of annual inspection (which can be remedied with a ferry permit & letting your insurance company know about it.  But if your A&P/IA signed off on the annual...that's a real plane with a real occurrence that will be covered.

A lot of the insurance paranoia on denied claims is overblown.  If you & your airplane were legal to fly in good faith and you're in compliance with the basic policy provisions (territory, approved pilots, etc.), you really have nothing to worry about. 

Thank you!

So, go out and machine those gears on your home mill everyone! 

[N201MKTurbo]

Why would a mechanic be responsible for an owner produced part? By its very name, it is produced by the owner, not the mechanic. That seems to imply that the owner takes total responsibility for the part. I think it was crafted that way for a reason.

[Bob R]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Why would a mechanic be responsible for an owner produced part? By its very name, it is produced by the owner, not the mechanic. That seems to imply that the owner takes total responsibility for the part. I think it was crafted that way for a reason.

Just in case you are not aware,Lasar sells pilot produced parts. A complete firewall set for an M20. Regardless, the hardness of a metal can be measured so why can't you have the part produced as a pilot owner? The fact is, I can and so can you. I know some of you out there actually believe Mooney, Cessna, Pipe, and all of these general aircraft companies make the gears themselves. I assure you, they do not. If a person could find out the company producing them, unless there is exclusivity and a patent still in place, you or I could order ditect and save $4000 and $500 in metal and labor. the way,

That being said, and I need to verify the following, but I've been told the Cessna flap actuators are the same gear set in the gear actuator but 40:1 ratio. If true, they will be made out of the same hardness material as the 20:1 gears sets.. Sarasota aircraft has even put Learjet actuators in a Mooney. This stuff is not rocket science. It comes to nuts and bolts and when you by those AN part numbers they're just grade 8 nuts and bolts. grade 8 is grade 8 whether it's an AN part number or not.

If you feel I'm wrong, I am more than happy to have that discussion but you're going to need to show me facts that tell me I can't do it.

[Yetti]

As much as I like machining stuff.   I really would give these fine folks a call to see if they stock the item

https://www.bostongear.com/-/media/Files/Literature/Brand/boston-gear/catalogs/p-1930-bg-sections/p-1930-bg_engineering-info-worms-and-worm-gears.ashx

 

[Bob R]

Thank you. I will call them as I don't believe in reinventing the wheel. However I also don't believe it get ripped off just because it says airplane on it.

[Yetti]

19 minutes ago, Bob R said:

Thank you. I will call them as I don't believe in reinventing the wheel. However I also don't believe it get ripped off just because it says airplane on it.

Welcome to the CB Club.   Not sure if you saw it but, in my ITT actuator, the right angle gear for the motor was a Boston Gear.    Since ITT usually is just an assembler of other components, I would bet a dollar that they were buying both gear sets from Boston Gear or the whole right angle drive and the worm drive and assembling them with a motor and selling to Mooney and Cessna.   My understanding is on the Cessna it was a Citation Flap actuator that was the same as Mooney Gear, but never tracked it down.

[Yetti]

The worm drive of this looks pretty close to the worm drive on a mooney actuator.

Not near my pictures.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/C301002-0312-Cessna-150-172-182-Tube-Assy-Flap-Actuator-/252198867181

 

[Yetti]

A google search for Cessna Worm Gear lead me to this page.     https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/36683399?cid=ppc-google-New+-+Motion+Control+%26+Fluid+Power+-+PLA_snyOxma8V___164124449003_c_S&mkwid=snyOxma8V|dc&pcrid=164124449003&rd=k&product_id=36683399&gclid=CjwKCAiA35rxBRAWEiwADqB37y3tipoumqsie-WxYqXsa28aYLrw9SqZ3FRoRq67l6ZAa9zfiAy0OxoCHnQQAvD_BwE

 

[Yetti]

So this is the devil that you know.   There is a Mooney SB20-191 which suggest to uprgrade to the Avionics Products which is Eaton corp.  The Avionics Products Actuator has the dreaded bronze back spring that wears out. and are unobtainable

ITT Aerospace is still in existence.  So a call there might be entertaining.

Some fun reading.   http://www.knr-inc.com/shoptalk-articles/25-shoptalk/30-200107-emergency-gear-extension-systems

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Yetti

[Yetti]

the elusive gears

http://donmaxwell.com/ad-75-23-04-the-importance-of-checking-your-dukes-and-itt-electric-gear-actuators/

[Yetti]

SB 190

with more pics of gears  https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/service_bulletins/sbm20-190B.pdf

 

[Yetti]

Might also call Dukes Aerospace and ask for part number 4196-1000 Dukes gear kit (alternate MAC P/N: 940024-501 for Dukes or –503 for ITT

 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/dukes-aerospace-inc-/

[Parker_Woodruff]

18 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Why would a mechanic be responsible for an owner produced part? By its very name, it is produced by the owner, not the mechanic. That seems to imply that the owner takes total responsibility for the part. I think it was crafted that way for a reason.

It's still the A&P/IA's signature in that logbook saying the airplane is airworthy.  They're both taking responsibility.

[N201MKTurbo]

40 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

It's still the A&P/IA's signature in that logbook saying the airplane is airworthy.  They're both taking responsibility.

Sure, but their responsibility ends by saying "I properly installed an owner produced part, that the owner certified as equivalent to the original". 

That being said, if it was an obvious piece of crap, I would smile and hand it back to the owner.

An A&P IA is only responsible for assuring that approved parts and approved methods are used. As an A&P (soon to be IA) I have no way of knowing if a part is made correctly. We get certs for the parts we buy and assume they were made correctly. When an owner gives us a part and says it was produced as an owner produced part, You have no more responsibility to question it than a purchased part with certs. If a purchased part fails (like that has never happened) is it the mechanic's fault or the manufacturer of the part? In this case the manufacturer of the part is the owner. I would clearly state that in the log book entry.

[N201MKTurbo]

57 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

It's still the A&P/IA's signature in that logbook saying the airplane is airworthy.  They're both taking responsibility.

BTW,

Are you talking about violating regulations or getting sued? the two have little to do with each other.

[Bob R]

On 1/20/2020 at 6:14 PM, MikeOH said:

Yes.  I am familiar with the ACs and the concept of owner produced parts.  It isn't that hard... for some parts; e.g. skin panel.  It can be very hard for parts such as hardened steel gears in a landing-gear gearbox.  It is pretty clear in all of the FAA references that you have to substantiate how you established that your "owner produced part" meets the original part's design requirements.  Yes, you can have an existing part copied.  However, if you have a worn out gear, just how are you going to establish the proper new limit dimensions?  How about if the gears were case hardened? Maybe the surface hardening has worn through?  Do you know? Do you even know if the entire gear is hardened, or just the surface? Are you going to send out the gears for analysis to determine proper material?

Again, no one is going to care if there is never an issue.  But, since the FACTORY gears have been know to fail (hence the AD for the Part 1 and 2 inspection), just what is going to happen with your insurance when YOUR owner produced gears fail?

No doubt you can find a machine shop to copy the gears and a willing A&P/IA to sign them off as airworthy.  But, the question remains, if they fail and your insurance denies the claim do you think that A&P and machine shop is going to make good on your gear-up repair?

Paranoid?  You bet I am.

Maybe @Parker_Woodruff can comment on how an insurance company would view such a claim.  If he says, "no problem, they'd cover such a gear-up," I'll back off of my paranoia

If Boston Gear has the same gear set number as Mooney, don't you think they are the same part? I bet if I called the FAA they would agree they are the same part. Just because it came from "Mooney" does not mean it originated from Mooney, in fact, relative to the gears, I'd bet my airplane on it.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Bob R said:

If Boston Gear has the same gear set number as Mooney, don't you think they are the same part? I bet if I called the FAA they would agree they are the same part. Just because it came from "Mooney" does not mean it originated from Mooney, in fact, relative to the gears, I'd bet my airplane on it.

That's hardly the owner produced part scenario being discussed.

If you can buy the EXACT part number, I don't see a problem, either.

[Bob R]

1 minute ago, MikeOH said:

That's hardly the owner produced part scenario being discussed.

If you can buy the EXACT part number, I don't see a problem, either.

No it is not. However, I can find the parts and have requested a quote. Will be interesting what the cost is. If I could get the engineering diagrams for the 4196-1000 or the MAC 940024-501, it would be a no brainer. I am just trying to find a cheaper way of doing this than well over 5K. Ludicrous price.

[Shiny moose]

MK, yes you can be responsible if someone wants you to be. When you get your IA and sign your name your ensuring all past records and maintenance has been done correct up to the point of your signature. You dont get to exclude owner produced parts on the annual, you have to determine if the part was produced properly and documented properly, and yes, if that part fails you could  be held accountable. Same as unapproved parts that owners use, if its determined it was there and you signed off on it, you could be held accountable. I know a few IAs that have lost an A or a P and therefore their IA because of things they were held accountable for well after annuals were signed off 

 

[skipswift]

On 5/27/2019 at 11:24 PM, Dream to fly said:

Don't have that problem anymore. New handle fits properly and a roll pin fits snug. Then a neoprene o-ring fits in the groove for added pin security and it looks clean.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 

Where can I get one of these for my cabin door?

[Bob R]

On 5/26/2019 at 11:16 AM, Chris Strube said:

Does anyone have tips on replacing the roll pin in the door handle?  Mine fell out, and I had to use my "mandatory" vise grips to get out.

thanks,

 

 

After you get the pin in, safety wire it. It will stay in and do the safety wire properly and you’ll never see it.

[kerry]

My handle was just to worn out and no matter what I tried it couldn't fit snug.  I found this window crank handle on eBay.  It came with a quite a bit of hardware.  It almost seemed like it was designed for the Mooney door.