Cabin door not closing fully

[BrettKS]

I posted back in December about a difficult to close cabin door on my C model. I have either addressed the issue to some extent or have improved my technique. However, on a flight over the weekend I was in light precipitation and noticed some water coming in to the cabin. I looked up an saw an opening the the door -- I could see the sky! I landed and re-closed the door, took off, but once I got into the air the same issue happened. I'm wondering if this has been happening all along but I haven't noticed it because I usually don't fly in precip. Also, I can't see the opening after closing it on the ground, so maybe the airflow is pushing it open some? And one other tid-bit: When I close the cabin door from the outside lever it seems to get a better seal. I wonder if it is closing appropriately from the outside but not when I close it from the inside. Any thoughts?

 

 

[Marauder]

8 minutes ago, BrettKS said:

I posted back in December about a difficult to close cabin door on my C model. I have either addressed the issue to some extent or have improved my technique. However, on a flight over the weekend I was in light precipitation and noticed some water coming in to the cabin. I looked up an saw an opening the the door -- I could see the sky! I landed and re-closed the door, took off, but once I got into the air the same issue happened. I'm wondering if this has been happening all along but I haven't noticed it because I usually don't fly in precip. Also, I can't see the opening after closing it on the ground, so maybe the airflow is pushing it open some? And one other tid-bit: When I close the cabin door from the outside lever it seems to get a better seal. I wonder if it is closing appropriately from the outside but not when I close it from the inside. Any thoughts?

 

 

Wow! That is a big gap. What does your door seal look like? I think the door has a little bit of negative pressure on it flight and can pull outward if the latches aren't adjusted correctly. I would check the alignment of your door catches.

[BrettKS]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

Wow! That is a big gap. What does your door seal look like? I think the door has a little bit of negative pressure on it flight and can pull outward if the latches aren't adjusted correctly. I would check the alignment of your door catches.

Door seal was replaced recently and looks normal on my view. Any references on how to learn to adjust the latches?

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, BrettKS said:

Door seal was replaced recently and looks normal on my view. Any references on how to learn to adjust the latches?

@M20Doc Hoping the good doctor can chime in on this. On my F, the top mechanism has an adjustment shaft which can be moved. Not sure how the C models do this.

[0TreeLemur]

Your upper latch is not catching.

[Prior owner]

I’ve seen a few pics of doors where people installed an inside upper door pull. After installing new wind lace around my door it’s a little tight, so I’m tempted to do this. Yours sounds more like adjustment or wear related?

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, Fred₂O said:

Your upper latch is not catching.

Our Cs don't have upper latches, unless added by STC.

[BrettKS]

21 minutes ago, PilotCoyote said:

I’ve seen a few pics of doors where people installed an inside upper door pull. After installing new wind lace around my door it’s a little tight, so I’m tempted to do this. Yours sounds more like adjustment or wear related?

Yeah, I imagine wear related. I'll have to look into getting that upper door pull, that might do the trick.

5 minutes ago, Hank said:

Our Cs don't have upper latches, unless added by STC.

I am not aware of my C having an STC, but I do see a latch at the top. Is that what you're referring to or would an STCd upper latch look different?

[0TreeLemur]

My '67C has an upper latch that looks just like yours in that first photo.  It has a little hook on the end that grabs a retainer and holds the top of the door in place.   I've only owned this a/c for 1-1/2 years, so I don't know its history.  The logs don't say anything about the addition of an upper door latch.  I cannot imagine the door would seal at all without an upper latch, given that the cabin is slighly pressurized compared to the curved free stream around the cabin.

[takair]

When you close the door, be sure the door handle is aft, so that the upper latch is on the aft side if the pin (IIRC).  With the door pulled tight (I hold the handle/chain while manipulating the door handle) move the door handle forward.....you should feel/ see the upper part of the door pull in as the latch catches and pulls the door in tight.  You should then feel the door handle go over canter, locking, both the upper and lower latches in the captured position.  I suspect your upper latch is coming up short of the pin it needs to catch.  A new door seal can do this and may need adjustment.  Unfortunately, I don’t recall a whole lot of adjustment in the door mechanism itself....but I would suspect the seal or something got bent or worn.

[TTaylor]

Definitely the upper latch not catching.  Need to check the adjustment and your technique for closing the door.

As part of our check list the door must be pulled and held tightly closed, latch pushed forward until both latches engage, and then we push on the top of the door to confirm the top is latched.  

 

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Our Cs don't have upper latches, unless added by STC.

mine does, and it's a '65 model also.  Seeing the lack of "work" around it, I'd be surprised if it were added after the fact.  Needless to say, you've been right more times than me.  

[Guest]

Clearly there is an issue with upper door latch adjustment or damage, as others have pointed out.  There is really no information in the older manuals on door adjustment.  You will need to remove the upholstery and interior from the door to expose the mechanism and then work out the required adjustments.

Clarence

[BrettKS]

Thank you for all of the recommendations. Will look into this and report back.

 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, Fred₂O said:

My '67C has an upper latch that looks just like yours in that first photo.  It has a little hook on the end that grabs a retainer and holds the top of the door in place.   I've only owned this a/c for 1-1/2 years, so I don't know its history.  The logs don't say anything about the addition of an upper door latch.  I cannot imagine the door would seal at all without an upper latch, given that the cabin is slighly pressurized compared to the curved free stream around the cabin.

Been like that since I owned that airplane 15 years ago.

[Hank]

23 minutes ago, rbridges said:

mine does, and it's a '65 model also.  Seeing the lack of "work" around it, I'd be surprised if it were added after the fact.  Needless to say, you've been right more times than me.  

I don't have one, and remember reading somewhere that when adding the upper latch, drilling the hole into the door frame is a one-shot job--get it right, or give up on the upper latch. Maybe that was on the Mooney Mailing List, it's been several years ago. They can be added, but I don't know when they first appeared. After my 1970 C model was built.

[M20F-1968]

I cannot comment on the upper latch on the C model because I took the vintage hardware out of my airplane.  Took the outer skin off my door, and installed the Ovation harware. I have the flat type outer handle and a clothes-pin type latch on the top that pulls the door into the fuselage.  Much better arrangement than the hook on the vintage planes.

However, I also installed a fixed pin on the door that holds that part of the door against the fuselage.  You and every one else should install it.  It is easy to install, but you need to take time fitting the hole it latches into in the door frame so it is tight when closed.  Call Dan a Lasar and he can get you that part.

John Breda

[Ross Taylor]

We've had some issues with this, too.  It's not opened in flight, and seems to secure just fine if latched, but it does take some finesse to get the upper latch into the right spot.  If you aren't careful, it can actually slide up onto the top of the frame instead of into the slot. Once in place, though, pushing the handle forward sucks that in tightly.  From the outside, it's easy peasy by placing my hand on the top of the door when closing it.  But from the inside, not so easy... and that explains why some have added an upper pull... and why I was thinking the same thing.

On a side note, I have the interior door panel off right now to fix/reinforce a few cracks in the plastic.  I'm glad I removed this, because it forced me to remove the interior door handle which I found to be quite cracked near the base around the through holes.  I expect that at some point pretty soon that would have failed and led me to crawl over the back seat to get the vice grips.

[Prior owner]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Our Cs don't have upper latches, unless added by STC.

My ‘64 D has an upper latch... hmm..

[steingar]

When you close the door, do so firmly, and hold it closed as you turn the latch.

Edited April 29, 2019 by steingar

[skydvrboy]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Clearly there is an issue with upper door latch adjustment or damage, as others have pointed out.  There is really no information in the older manuals on door adjustment.  You will need to remove the upholstery and interior from the door to expose the mechanism and then work out the required adjustments.

Clarence

We've been trying to figure this out on my F as well.  It's not as bad as the OP, but in-flight, I've got a 1/8" to 1/4" gap at the upper rear of the door.  It's just enough to suck my wife's air outside.

When I shut and latch it, I can see the top being pulled in, so I know the latch is engaging the pin.  My A&P thought we could just adjust the pin, but there is no adjustment there.  I was thinking about adding a second weatherstrip to the frame of the plane to close up the gap, but if it can be adjusted through the latch in the door, that may be a better option.

[Shadrach]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Our Cs don't have upper latches, unless added by STC.

Cs don;t have an upper pin but I'm pretty sure they have an upper latch.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, skydvrboy said:

We've been trying to figure this out on my F as well.  It's not as bad as the OP, but in-flight, I've got a 1/8" to 1/4" gap at the upper rear of the door.  It's just enough to suck my wife's air outside.

When I shut and latch it, I can see the top being pulled in, so I know the latch is engaging the pin.  My A&P thought we could just adjust the pin, but there is no adjustment there.  I was thinking about adding a second weatherstrip to the frame of the plane to close up the gap, but if it can be adjusted through the latch in the door, that may be a better option.

This is a door issue, not a seal issue.  How does it look from the outside?  The seam between the door and the body should be tight all the way around. it should not pull away.  There are no air leaks around the door of my 67F.

[0TreeLemur]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

When you close the door, do so firmly, and hold it closed as you turn the latch.

I agree with @steingar.   Plus, the prior owner of my a/c, who is also a CFII, taught me in the pre-takeoff checklist to always push out on the upper portion of the door to verify that the upper latch is caught.

[skydvrboy]

4 hours ago, Shadrach said:

This is a door issue, not a seal issue.  How does it look from the outside?  The seam between the door and the body should be tight all the way around. it should not pull away.  There are no air leaks around the door of my 67F.

No doubt, to be more precise, I believe it is a hinge issue. Probably from someone using the door to bear their weight getting out, repeatedly slamming it, or the wind catching it and springing the hinge. From the outside you can see the top is very slightly out. I think a 1/2” gasket instead of the 1/4” would solve the gap issue.  Adjusting the top latch may also work. To fix it back to factory would most likely involve a 2x4 and a big hammer, but I don’t want to go with something that drastic.