Trade offs between an F and J model

[Bob - S50]

  On 4/10/2019 at 12:31 PM, steingar said:

Watched it happen.  A buddy's Echo, which had the LASAR cowl mod and nothing else, outran a 201.  Heck, even if only it just keep up, the E is going to be quite a bit less money than the J.  The 201's don't even outrun my C by that much, like I said difference in trip times can usually be counted in minutes.  Had I the choice, I know which I'd choose.

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We have probably all read the MAPA evaluations of the different models.  If you haven't, here is a link to the one about the J:

M20J Evaluation

Near the bottom of the article he compares performance of the various models.  A stock J is roughly 10 knots faster than a stock E.  The E is about 2 knots faster than the F, and the F is about 2 to 5 knots faster than a C (depending on altitude).

While you can modify an E to be faster than a J, I'm guessing you will have spent more money than you would have if you had just bought the J in the first place.

As for comparing actual in flight speeds, the only way to do that is to make sure both aircraft are using the same power.  I would suggest both aircraft should use the same fuel flow while LOP.  Once you know they are using the same power, then you can compare speeds.  Soon after we got our J, one of my partners flew someplace and a friend of his did the same in a Bonanza.  He was dismayed by the fact that the Bonanza easily walked away from him.  However, my partner was using about 65% power and had no idea what power setting his friend was using.  Had they compared fuel flows it could very well have been 65% of 200HP vs 75% of 285HP, 8.7 GPH vs 14 GPH.  He had no idea.

[kris_adams]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:39 PM, Bob_Belville said:

Too much is made of the 5" difference in floor length which is shared between front and rear seats. I'm confident that there's as much or more rear seat leg room behind me in my E than behind @Marauderin his F. (He's about 7" taller and no doubt sets his seat at least 5" further back.) Of course if there's no one behind me I can move the seat way back in cruise. So can an F driver but I doubt he wants to get further back that I am.

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behind me in the J is like a limo (well you know what I mean).. .my seat is all the way forward as I'm vertically challenged...

[Bob_Belville]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:42 PM, Kris_Adams said:

behind me in the J is like a limo (well you know what I mean).. .my seat is all the way forward as I'm vertically challenged...

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I wear a 29" inseam which is probably the telling datum.

[Bob_Belville]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:39 PM, Bob - S50 said:

We have probably all read the MAPA evaluations of the different models.  If you haven't, here is a link to the one about the J:

M20J Evaluation

Near the bottom of the article he compares performance of the various models.  A stock J is roughly 10 knots faster than a stock E.  The E is about 2 knots faster than the F, and the F is about 2 to 5 knots faster than a C (depending on altitude).

While you can modify an E to be faster than a J, I'm guessing you will have spent more money than you would have if you had just bought the J in the first place.

As for comparing actual in flight speeds, the only way to do that is to make sure both aircraft are using the same power.  I would suggest both aircraft should use the same fuel flow while LOP.  Once you know they are using the same power, then you can compare speeds.  Soon after we got our J, one of my partners flew someplace and a friend of his did the same in a Bonanza.  He was dismayed by the fact that the Bonanza easily walked away from him.  However, my partner was using about 65% power and had no idea what power setting his friend was using.  Had they compared fuel flows it could very well have been 65% of 200HP vs 75% of 285HP, 8.7 GPH vs 14 GPH.  He had no idea.

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MooneyMax @Jan Maxwellplans to include some speed contests. Should be fun.

[Hank]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:33 PM, Kris_Adams said:

I'm probably the only one who loves electric gear and wouldn't want the Johnson bar.  After almost 10 years of ownership I don't get all of the "difficulty" and "expense" of owning electric gear-equipped Mooney.  I for one (and I'm obviously the minority here lol) love my electric gear and flaps.

Fire away!

KA

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I've had my electric C since mid-2007 and feel the same way. Love the electric gear, and very happy with the higher gear and flap speeds!

Can't help but wonder what "extra expense" my flaps and gear are supposed to have? The gear has the same grease joints, minus the ones in the cockpit, and no leather / fabric sleeve to replace; I routinely store things between the seats for the duration of my flight (sometimes the lunch I eat enroute); no hydraulic lines to replace or bleed; no orings to go bad . . . .

Edited April 10, 2019 by Hank

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 12:48 PM, Kmac said:

I have a '62 C with electric flaps...

<snip>

Edit:  correction...not STC'd I have a 337 and used Mooney drawing 940001...

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Interesting. I've never seen that before. Good to know!

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 1:09 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

The delta from absolute fastest to absolute slowest is only 20 knots and for the majority of the fleet it is more like 12.

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I think you might be forgetting the stock M20D...

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:33 PM, Kris_Adams said:

After almost 10 years of ownership I don't get all of the "difficulty" and "expense" of owning electric gear-equipped Mooney.  I for one (and I'm obviously the minority here lol) love my electric gear and flaps.

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How often do you fly? The 100 and 200 hour ADs on the electric gear start to get old, and expensive, if you're doing more than 100 hours a year (i.e., those things occur outside of annual). I do kinda miss the J-bar gear. Not a lot. But if I'd had the option of two otherwise identical "3RM"s, one with manual gear (but electric flaps) and the push-pull power controls ... 

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:39 PM, Bob_Belville said:

Too much is made of the 5" difference in floor length which is shared between front and rear seats.

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I disagree. It seems like not much, but it really does make the difference between it being a 2+2 coupe vs. an actual 4-seat airplane. I'm tallish (6'2") but it's all torso; my inseam is 32 (my jeans are 33/32), which is very very standard for an American male. There was no way you could have fit an adult foot into the space between my front seat and the rear seat of the E. Tyrion Lannister could have ridden back there comfortably, but not many other adults.

I've had 3 170-200+ lbs guys in my F and we all fit quite comfortably; the other day I flew in the back seat of a 201 from Van Nuys to Lakeport (LASAR) and it was tight but doable. There's no way it would have been possible with 5" less legroom.

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 3:23 PM, Hank said:

Can't help but wonder what "extra expense" my flaps and gear are supposed to have?

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There's the 100 hour greasing (which I don't believe the manual gear has?), and the 200 hour tear-down and inspection of the worm drive. There's also the time spent checking the manual extension mechanism at annual, and servicing that (I've heard of the "string" breaking and needing to be replaced). Flaps, I don't think there's any additional expense; indeed, as you note (and I experienced), there's "no hydraulic lines to replace or bleed; no orings to go bad" on the electric flaps.

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 7:01 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

Finally, that 5” of leg room makes the difference between a usable backseat, or not, if the front seaters are over 6’ tall.

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Again, I think it's much lower than that, on average. According to eBay (which moves a lot of clothing), a 32" inseam is normal for men 5 ft. 5 in. to 5 ft. 8 in. With my 32" inseam (I have an awkwardly long torso, so much so that I have to get dress shirts custom made or they won't stay tucked in), there was a 3-4" gap between the front seat back and the front edge of the rear seat. There was no usable space for anyone with feet and legs longer than ~12" or so to sit behind me. Most men in the U.S. are between 5'5" and 6'1". For the vast majority of the Mooney market, the M20/A/B/C/D/E rear seat is unusable for adults.

https://www.ebay.com/gds/How-to-Measure-Your-Inseam-/10000000178626635/g.html

https://www.themodestman.com/clothing-industry-sizes/

[kris_adams]

  On 4/10/2019 at 6:24 PM, chrixxer said:

How often do you fly? The 100 and 200 hour ADs on the electric gear start to get old, and expensive, if you're doing more than 100 hours a year (i.e., those things occur outside of annual). I do kinda miss the J-bar gear. Not a lot. But if I'd had the option of two otherwise identical "3RM"s, one with manual gear (but electric flaps) and the push-pull power controls ... 

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More than 100 on good years...slightly less on bad years. I don’t think this AD applies to my J (though I’m not at my logbooks). Here’s a list of ADs I dug up and I still don’t see it. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/airworthiness_directives/search/?q=mooney+m20j  Maybe the AD you reference doesn’t apply to the J  (good point as this is a J vs F comparison thread)  as I said, I will take the electric gear any day  

Also, greasing your gear every 100 hours is probably a good idea anyway whether required by AD or SB or not.

KA

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:07 PM, Kris_Adams said:

Maybe the AD you reference doesn’t apply to the J  (good point as this is a J vs F comparison thread)

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There's a 200 hour inspection that applies to at least some Js (24-0001 THRU 24-0083, 24-0085 THRU 24-0377): https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/service_instructions/sim20-112_Rev_A.pdf

 

 

[Oldguy]

  On 4/10/2019 at 7:01 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

Finally, that 5” of leg room makes the difference between a usable backseat, or not, if the front seaters are over 6’ tall.  If you are over my height at 6’4”, it also starts to make the difference between whether you can comfortably fit in the front seat or not, too.  

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At 6'5" (and shrinking) with a 36" inseam, I know I can fill the seats in my J, but if I did not have the mid-body, I think it would be a 3 seater at max  with the third person sitting either behind the co-pilot or sideways in their seat.

[kris_adams]

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:15 PM, chrixxer said:

There's a 200 hour inspection that applies to at least some Js (24-0001 THRU 24-0083, 24-0085 THRU 24-0377): https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/service_instructions/sim20-112_Rev_A.pdf

 

 

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I’ve never made 200 hours in a year unfortunately plus the link you shared doesn’t apply to my J. I’d be surprised if many of our birds are flown over 200 hours/year so this is probably done at annual—and at every 3rd or 4th annual for the hangar queens. 

[Bob - S50]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:48 PM, Bob_Belville said:

MooneyMax @Jan Maxwellplans to include some speed contests. Should be fun.

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Should be.  But if they plan to compare speeds between models, be sure they are comparing similar power settings.

[kris_adams]

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:25 PM, Bob - S50 said:

Should be.  But if they plan to compare speeds between models, be sure they are comparing similar power settings.

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Lol we better have people observing then.  Or just let everyone fly like they choose so we see a range of performance. 

[Oldguy]

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:46 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

At 6’5” I’m not even sure that you would be comfortable at all in a short body.  I am 6’4” with a 34” inseam and in my current C I have to keep my seat in the rear-most hole.  I am totally comfortable there, but there is absolutely zero rear seat leg room behind me.  No one except small children can sit there.  In my previous J I used the second-to-last hole.  I don’t think pilots who are taller than I am would be very comfortable in a short body Mooney, whereas you and @Yetti, at 6’5” and 6’7” I believe, get along fine in your mid-bodies.  Even with the front seat in the last hole in a mid body there is some useable rear seat leg room left.  Not a lot, but some.  There is none at all that is usable in a short body.

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Yeah, I use the next to rearmost hole and have enough room, but putting it in the rearmost one is also acceptable when I want to straighten my legs on a longer flight.

[Marauder]

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:36 PM, Kris_Adams said:

Lol we better have people observing then.  Or just let everyone fly like they choose so we see a range of performance. 

And not to mention the need for calibrate airspeed, MP and RPM gauges.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[mooniac15u]

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:46 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

At 6’5” I’m not even sure that you would be comfortable at all in a short body.  I am 6’4” with a 34” inseam and in my current C I have to keep my seat in the rear-most hole.  I am totally comfortable there, but there is absolutely zero rear seat leg room behind me.  No one except small children can sit there.  In my previous J I used the second-to-last hole.  I don’t think pilots who are taller than I am would be very comfortable in a short body Mooney, whereas you and @Yetti, at 6’5” and 6’7” I believe, get along fine in your mid-bodies.  Even with the front seat in the last hole in a mid body there is some useable rear seat leg room left.  Not a lot, but some.  There is none at all that is usable in a short body.

No argument from me there.  Short bodies are the aeronautical equivalent of 2+2 sport cars. Unless at least one of the front seaters are really much shorter than the modern American average, the backseat is little more than a secondary luggage compartment.

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I'm 6'5" and in my M20D I didn't have even an inch to spare between my knees and the bottom part of the panel with the seat in the last hole.  In my M20J I still fly with the seat in the last hole but I definitely have more clearance around my knees.  I can even fly with the seat one notch forward, although it's pretty tight.  I've heard people say that the pilot legroom is the same in the short and mid body Mooneys but I can definitely tell a difference.  It might just be in how high the bottom of the panel is above the floor but it makes a difference for me.

[Bob_Belville]

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:46 PM, bluehighwayflyer said:

re.  Short bodies are the aeronautical equivalent of 2+2 sport cars. Unless at least one of the front seaters are really much shorter than the modern American average, the backseat is little more than a secondary luggage compartment.

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There's a lot of BS in the last 2 pages of posts. The average male height in the US is 5'9" according to this study. That's for all men over 20 years old. I would surmise that the average pilot is probably older (and perhaps shorter) than the general population. A few of you know that Al Mooney was well over 6' tall - I don't know how much he had to say about the size of the first M20. 

I've posted these pics from my '66E before - these were not sight seeing hops but long cross country trips. If I were more camera happy I could have posted many more with 4 adults grinning not grimacing. 

https://www.healthline.com/health/average-height-for-men#u.s.-height

Perhaps the original size M20s is not for everyone who want to carry 4 passengers but I suppose those basketball players are the exception. 

 

[Bob_Belville]

  On 4/10/2019 at 9:04 PM, Marauder said:

 

And not to mention the need for calibrate airspeed, MP and RPM gauges.


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Naw, if this is a race it is @jetdrivenrules - flat out  - BttW. Winner will be the best time point to point.  

[kris_adams]

  On 4/10/2019 at 9:26 PM, Bob_Belville said:

Naw, if this is a race it is @jetdrivenrules - flat out  - BttW. Winner will be the best time point to point.  

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You know that’s right!

[EricJ]

  On 4/10/2019 at 2:33 PM, Kris_Adams said:

I'm probably the only one who loves electric gear and wouldn't want the Johnson bar.  After almost 10 years of ownership I don't get all of the "difficulty" and "expense" of owning electric gear-equipped Mooney.  I for one (and I'm obviously the minority here lol) love my electric gear and flaps.

Fire away!

KA

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I'm also a fan of the electric gear and flaps.   No regrets there at all.

  On 4/10/2019 at 8:15 PM, chrixxer said:

There's a 200 hour inspection that applies to at least some Js (24-0001 THRU 24-0083, 24-0085 THRU 24-0377): https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4147179/technical_documents/service_instructions/sim20-112_Rev_A.pdf

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Service instruction only, not a requirement for typical GA.   If we want to compare applicable SIs, ADs, etc., it's going to get pretty complicated and/or ugly pretty quickly.

[chrixxer]

  On 4/10/2019 at 9:18 PM, Bob_Belville said:

There's a lot of BS in the last 2 pages of posts. The average male height in the US is 5'9"

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(1) Your single anecdote doesn't change the realities of nationwide averages.

(2) The mean or median height being 5'9" is really irrelevant here, you have to look at the statistically significant grouping (which is a wider range).

(3) Height doesn't mean much by itself, inseam is what really matters, as that's what will determine how far back the seat(s) are set, for rudder control (etc).

(4) Saying "there's a lot of BS" without doing anything to meaningfully refute the numbers, and other experiences, isn't really a debate technique.

I have first hand experience, with a 32" inseam (a very common inseam measurement), flying a B, a C, an E, and multiple Fs and Js. The rear seat is usable behind me and my average inseam legs in the mid-body. It simply is not, by a non-outlier adult with legs and feet, in the short-body planes.