Mooney down KSAF

[steingar]

3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

The whole point of being on flight following is that if anything bad happens, you’re already talking to the people who will help you. 

The whole point of being on FF is to get radar advisories so you know if someone is on a collision course. That's why its called VFR radar advisories.   Thing is, where I live you can procure the same information with a Stratus antenna and an iPad.  

Where I live your crash is likely to be witnessed, and your call to guard probably more effective.  You're talking on guard to the guys the ATC folks are going to call when you go missing.

All that said, we're all adults.  If you like FF go for it, why not.  If the controllers like it so much good on them.  I've never been thanked for using it here, though I 've been blown off often enough.  IF I ever get to do the IR thing I'll get to listen for my tail number plenty.

Edited November 29, 2018 by steingar

[gsxrpilot]

After flying with me a bit, my wife commented that going forward she'd know how to get my attention when I'm not listening to her. "Hey! 252 Alpha Delta!" 

She says it works better than using my name 

[LANCECASPER]

On 11/29/2018 at 12:13 PM, steingar said:

 IF I ever get to d other IR thing I'll get to listen for my tail number plenty.

I've used flight following on every VFR cross country flight of any distance  over 50 nm since 1986. Nine years later when I was working on my instrument rating my instructor commended me on my radio procedures and etiquette and commented that one of the biggest challenges for many of his IFR students is transitioning into the "IFR system". All of the radio transmissions I had heard while on flight following certainly helped.

There is absolutely traffic which ATC has called out which has not shown up on Foreflight. If I cancel IFR I still stay on VFR flight following.  I pay for ATC with my fuel  tax, I'm going to take advantage of it. Even if I was charged a user fee for using it, I would still use it.

 

On 11/29/2018 at 9:10 AM, steingar said:

I already dislike FF, don't like listening for my tail number when I'm yakking with pax.  Moreover, they can't really do anything for you that you can't do for yourself with just a bit of technology.  I think broadcasting on the guard frequency will get as much attention as the ATC frequency, perhaps more.  Given how quickly they get on telling you to stop transmitting on guard, someone must be listening.

I can chat with my passengers on the ground or in between radio transmissions, but since they have trusted me with their lives my number one responsibility to them is to get them back to the ground safely. I will use every means available to add to that safety. Thinking that an uncertified app on an uncertified device receiving traffic from another uncertified device is as good as the world's best air traffic system borders on crazy. Tablets and apps have their place and they have added to situational awareness and traffic awareness but there are things they can't replace. (One of many examples: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=160901)

[Danb]

Ross I wasn't jumping on anyone's bandwagon, merely mentioning when I read the post I thought about the work done on the plane or not done, my reflection was based on a good friend of mine sold his Bo last year, then was in an accident with the new owner after five hours it was in impeccable mechanical condition only to have the Faa or NTSB investigate the logs in a effort to find fault by the prior owner and or mechanics, at this point he has hired a lawyer to determine if he is culpable. Merely my first thought on an accident. BTW even if it was a perfectly maintained plane like my friends I would have the same thought process, don't take it personal..

Dan

[steingar]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Thinking that an uncertified app on an uncertified device receiving traffic from another uncertified device is as good as the world's best air traffic system borders on crazy. Tablets and apps have their place and they have added to situational awareness and traffic awareness but there are things they can't replace.

Like I said, the tablet and the app show me what they see.  Its just like my computer showed me the same thing as the guy at Lockheed Martin, but I had to call him to satisfy statutes.  Might be different in your neck of the woods, but that's who it is where I fly.  And there's lots of airline traffic hear, so controllers aren't always all that sanguine about VFR radar advisories.  I've been ignored more than I've gotten them in the past.

Edited November 29, 2018 by steingar

[DualRatedFlyer]

10 minutes ago, steingar said:

Like I said, the tablet and the app show me what they see.  Its just like my computer showed me the same thing as the guy at Lockheed Martin, but I had to call him to satisfy statutes.  Might be different in your neck of the woods, but that's who it is where I fly.

I get where you are coming from, but your logic is flawed in that you are not seeing everyone - which is fine and your preference.  I am not one to tell another how to fly his plane unless he is paying me to.

But to avoid confusion for others out there who read this,  it needs to be made clear that your tablet connected to your stratus will not show you the primary targets that ATC is seeing - and there are tons of them out there flying at various altitudes.  Please do not think that because there is no blue triangle on your ipad that there are no other aircraft operating in your area. 

In addition to no transponder traffic, someone with a mode-C or ADSB could even have a transponder failure that they dont know about.  Assuming a radar environment, this traffic can be known if you are operating with Flight Following.  Just one of the many safety tools we have available to us, like CO detectors, etc. 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Ross I wasn't jumping on anyone's bandwagon, merely mentioning when I read the post I thought about the work done on the plane or not done, my reflection was based on a good friend of mine sold his Bo last year, then was in an accident with the new owner after five hours it was in impeccable mechanical condition only to have the Faa or NTSB investigate the logs in a effort to find fault by the prior owner and or mechanics, at this point he has hired a lawyer to determine if he is culpable. Merely my first thought on an accident. BTW even if it was a perfectly maintained plane like my friends I would have the same thought process, don't take it personal..

Dan

Thanks for the explanation Dan.  I too have seen this kind of thing occur.  It was the reason why for my statement. I can't imagine that being the last person that touched an aircraft that was involved in a fatal is a pleasant place to find one's self...whether from an investigative or a personal standpoint.  I feel bad for a person in that situation. Couple that with the realization that someone you were conducting business with a few days prior is no longer for this world.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Shadrach

[RobertGary1]

FF is great but doesn’t substitute for a flight plan. At least in the SW on a cross country you can expect to be dropped by FF a couple times. 

-Robert 

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

FF is great but doesn’t substitute for a flight plan. At least in the SW on a cross country you can expect to be dropped by FF a couple times. 

-Robert 

Where you are, sure. East coast not so much. I don't think I have filed a S&R flight plan in decades but I my trips are rarely further than 700NM for my base in the Mid-Atlantic. I would certainly do so if flying in an area with limited radar/com coverage.

[ilovecornfields]

49 minutes ago, steingar said:

Like I said, the tablet and the app show me what they see.  Its just like my computer showed me the same thing as the guy at Lockheed Martin, but I had to call him to satisfy statutes.  Might be different in your neck of the woods, but that's who it is where I fly.  And there's lots of airline traffic hear, so controllers aren't always all that sanguine about VFR radar advisories.  I've been ignored more than I've gotten them in the past.

I don’t think anyone will convince you otherwise but I’m in the “file IFR or get flight following” camp. I learned to fly in San Diego and most flights were in San Diego/LA area. Since I started flying in 1990 I can think of only 2 instances where I was told I couldn’t get flight following. I understand different places are different but I think if you’re flying in a congested area it’s the safe and courteous thing to do . 

As an example, my last flight was from PSP to SBP. I flew VFR over the top of the Class B at 10.5k. I didn’t need to talk to anyone but I still requested flight following. At one point, the controller asked me if I could turn 20 deg right so I wouldn’t interfere with the traffic into ONT. if I hadn’t been on flight following, he would have had to vector everyone around me. It’s just part of playing nicely in the sandbox. Not everyone does.

Maybe if you’re being denied flight following it has something to do with how you request it. Like I said, flying in some of the busiest airspace in the US, I’ve never had that problem.

[Sabremech]

Ross,

Maybe I was quick to jump to a meaning on your post. At this point, I have to question whether a mechanic ( A&P/ IA) was involved at all. I’m seeing much more unapproved owner maintenance going on than I have in the past. 

It will be an interesting read when the facts are known to the public. 

David

[ragedracer1977]

Start listening around 15 minutes in.  This was destined to not go well.  Tried departing with speed brakes deployed, not responding to ATC, busting Class B, leaving the gear down.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgyr/KGYR2-Gnd-Twr-Nov-26-2018-2230Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR3iU23vI0iQT_m3ejXaaN8L_y7u2LnRCM4QUe6qtdykcwf1UkpHAsFaqmo

[Danb]

Ross in my buddies plane I was the last to fly it bringing it back to Wilmington after the annual and prebuy, it flew great for a bo, kinda slow and large but really nice. After the guy got his five hours,not enough in my estimation, I think on his first flight I’m not sure, it crashed next to Ocean City, luckily no fatalities

[Danb]

4 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Start listening around 15 minutes in.  This was destined to not go well.  Tried departing with speed brakes deployed, not responding to ATC, busting Class B, leaving the gear down.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgyr/KGYR2-Gnd-Twr-Nov-26-2018-2230Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR3iU23vI0iQT_m3ejXaaN8L_y7u2LnRCM4QUe6qtdykcwf1UkpHAsFaqmo

Kinda chilling knowing the outcome

[ragedracer1977]

1 minute ago, Danb said:

Kinda chilling knowing the outcome

I often wonder what controllers can really do.  I mean, they KNOW they pilot is not currently in a good place to pilot an aircraft.  But they have no way to know why, or if it's just a distraction in the moment.  I don't know how they deal with it.  

[Shadrach]

1 minute ago, Sabremech said:

Ross,

Maybe I was quick to jump to a meaning on your post. At this point, I have to question whether a mechanic ( A&P/ IA) was involved at all. I’m seeing much more unapproved owner maintenance going on than I have in the past. 

It will be an interesting read when the facts are known to the public. 

David

 That may bee the case. Statistically I don't think we're seeing an uptick in maintenance induced accidents but I'm not well informed on the trends.  In what way are you seeing an increase?  I curious about where and how you see it. Are you physically seeing sub-par, unlogged work?  Are you seeing owners doing things on your field that are illegal?   In this particular case, and this is pure speculation, it's hard for me to imagine a CFI signing off a flight review in this case, so maybe no annual either.

[Marauder]

13 minutes ago, Danb said:

Ross in my buddies plane I was the last to fly it bringing it back to Wilmington after the annual and prebuy, it flew great for a bo, kinda slow and large but really nice. After the guy got his five hours,not enough in my estimation, I think on his first flight I’m not sure, it crashed next to Ocean City, luckily no fatalities

You talking about Gary? If so, there were no fatalities but it sure messed him up.

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, Danb said:

Ross in my buddies plane I was the last to fly it bringing it back to Wilmington after the annual and prebuy, it flew great for a bo, kinda slow and large but really nice. After the guy got his five hours,not enough in my estimation, I think on his first flight I’m not sure, it crashed next to Ocean City, luckily no fatalities

OC Jersey or MD?  Glad there were no fatalities, imagine how much more contentious things would be if there had been... 

[Marauder]

19 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Start listening around 15 minutes in.  This was destined to not go well.  Tried departing with speed brakes deployed, not responding to ATC, busting Class B, leaving the gear down.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kgyr/KGYR2-Gnd-Twr-Nov-26-2018-2230Z.mp3?fbclid=IwAR3iU23vI0iQT_m3ejXaaN8L_y7u2LnRCM4QUe6qtdykcwf1UkpHAsFaqmo

Very sobering. His comment about it being noisy in the plane makes me wonder if he was flying without a headset.

[bonal]

It might be possible that the departure controller did not know of all the difficulties between the pilot and the ground controller. He did note the speed brakes deployed but the accident pilots response was rather sharp in complimenting the controllers sharp eyes. I think if I were the ground controller I might have had the pilot return to the FBO for a quick chat like the time with the intoxicated pilot that was discussed on MS earlier. I'm not suggesting he was intoxicated but impairment can come in lots of forms. If he checks out OK then no harm no foul. Was the recording on ATClive from the accident flight?

 

[Danb]

I am he’s finally moving about, his wife is over her injuries, rather not say much more since I’m close to the accident plane.

[Danb]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

OC Jersey or MD?  Glad there were no fatalities, imagine how much more contentious things would be if there had been... 

Md. June 2018

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I often wonder what controllers can really do.  I mean, they KNOW they pilot is not currently in a good place to pilot an aircraft.  But they have no way to know why, or if it's just a distraction in the moment.  I don't know how they deal with it.  

They use regulatory guidance. There were a lot of signs that this guy was not performing well, but he did not violate any regs on the ground.  

[ragedracer1977]

4 minutes ago, bonal said:

Was the recording on ATClive from the accident flight?

 

I believe so.  He departed GYR headed for the Denver area and for some reason diverted to Santa Fe

[Marauder]

I am he’s finally moving about, his wife is over her injuries, rather not say much more since I’m close to the accident plane.

Gary is a pretty detailed and safety oriented pilot who had a fair amount of time in his Sierra. I think something catastrophic happened to that plane. The only thing I think he could have done differently and may have changed the outcome was to put the wheels down.