Garmin G5 as Backup Attitude for ASPEN PFD1000

[gacoon]

The plane (M20J) is in for an engine swap - old engine making metal so its getting a IO-360A3B6 upgrade.  Now seems like a great time to eliminate the vacuum system.  I am considering the Garmin G5 as replacement for the vacuum Attitude Indicator - question is will it pass installation limitations for IFR operations.  They are:

2.1 Installation Limitation

It is the installer’s responsibility to ensure the installation will meet the requirements in this manual prior to modification of the aircraft.

The installation of the G5 requires the retention of the mechanical airspeed indicator, altimeter, and vertical speed indicator. 

·        If the G5 is installed as the primary attitude indicator, the existing rate of turn indicator must be retained.

·        If the G5 is installed as the rate of turn indicator, the existing primary attitude indicator must be retained.

It would appear that I would need at VSI as the mechanical VSI was removed when the ASPEN was installed.  The Aspen has a turn indicator and the wording "existing" would allow that. Anybody with an ASPEN been down this road successfully and how was it signed off?

[flumag]

I had the same question and decided finally for the L3 ESI-500. I'm very happy with it. You can do more on the L3 than the G5 (e.g. SV) . In the mean time Aspen sells L3 products as well what helps to get a better package price. I know the L3 is more expensive than the G5 but from my PoV it worth it.

Hendrik

[slowflyin]

28 minutes ago, flumag said:

I had the same question and decided finally for the L3 ESI-500. I'm very happy with it. You can do more on the L3 than the G5 (e.g. SV) . In the mean time Aspen sells L3 products as well what helps to get a better package price. I know the L3 is more expensive than the G5 but from my PoV it worth it.

Hendrik

When did you have the work done?  I approached Aspen in April about using the EIS 500 and was told it was not an option.  I'm hoping things have changed.

[gsxrpilot]

I think the correct answer here is to just add a second Aspen. First upgrade your PFD to Max then add an MFD Max and finish removing all your steam gauges including your AI. No backups required with the new Aspen Max displays.

As long as I'm spending your money and not mine... 

I have a G5 backing up my Aspen as do several of us around here... and many many more over on BeechTalk. But if the Max option had been available a year ago, I'd have two Aspens and no steam gauges.

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, slowflyin said:

When did you have the work done?  I approached Aspen in April about using the EIS 500 and was told it was not an option.  I'm hoping things have changed.

You folks have to get a second opinion about these things...

There are lots of Aspens flying around backed up with all different kinds of AI's from the G5's to the Sandel to the EIS 500. All are approved and flying legally.

[gacoon]

Trying to keep the costs out of the stratosphere - everything mentioned is really nice but double or triple the cost.  Given I'm putting in an engine its not the time to go hog wild on avionics.  I'm also considering the RC Allen RC2610 with backup battery, that is about $3,000 but the install is super easy.  The G5 has more function and I would like that, would likely cost about the same as the  RC Allen installed.  Like to see some examples of 337;'s with G5 approval, or names of shops that do it. 

[slowflyin]

6 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You folks have to get a second opinion about these things...

There are lots of Aspens flying around backed up with all different kinds of AI's from the G5's to the Sandel to the EIS 500. All are approved and flying legally.

Lesson learned.  In hindsight I should have sourced another shop.  It's tough to change when you have been using the same folks for 15 years.    I did however get a second opinion when they told me no.

Currently, the L3 ESI-500 is not an option, that may change in the future but, it could be a ways off. The Sandia Quattro and the RC Allen 2610 with battery backup meet the requirements of our STC but, the Aspen dealer will need to make their own evaluation since they are signing it off.

 

Best regards,

 

Michael Studley

Director, Customer Service - Field Service Engineering – Northeast Sales

 

 

Aspen Avionics

5001 Indian School Rd NE

Albuquerque, NM 87110 USA

 

Office: +1 (603) 617-2886

 

www.aspenavionics.com

[slowflyin]

Full disclosure, the email above has some lines deleted that were not relevant to the discussion.   

As gsxrpilot pointed out, it's probably all good as now I have the choice of two Aspens without the backup.   At the time it was discouraged by the lack of consensus and walked away. 

[gsxrpilot]

13 minutes ago, gacoon said:

Trying to keep the costs out of the stratosphere - everything mentioned is really nice but double or triple the cost.  Given I'm putting in an engine its not the time to go hog wild on avionics.  I'm also considering the RC Allen RC2610 with backup battery, that is about $3,000 but the install is super easy.  The G5 has more function and I would like that, would likely cost about the same as the  RC Allen installed.  Like to see some examples of 337;'s with G5 approval, or names of shops that do it. 

Crystal Avionics - New Braunfels, TX (KBAZ)

[Steve W]

18 minutes ago, gacoon said:

Trying to keep the costs out of the stratosphere - everything mentioned is really nice but double or triple the cost.  Given I'm putting in an engine its not the time to go hog wild on avionics.  I'm also considering the RC Allen RC2610 with backup battery, that is about $3,000 but the install is super easy.  The G5 has more function and I would like that, would likely cost about the same as the  RC Allen installed.  Like to see some examples of 337;'s with G5 approval, or names of shops that do it. 

I just finished my RC2610 install in place of my TC(per AC whatever), I did it in prep for more glass next year and pulled out the old backup electrical AI with no battery. The biggest hassle was finding someplace to hide the battery, there's way too many wires under the panel and almost every open place under the panel in my plane would be in the way of controls. I ended up making a tray for the right radio stack and ordering the longer cable to route it over there, you may be able to save a bit of money if you order it at the same time, I figured the included 3' would be plenty, 5' may have been overkill, but now I have plenty of service loops... (Anyplace I say 'I' obviously means I, while supervised by and inspected by my A&P)

But at the same time, maybe I should have gone with a G5... then it could have been a backup if I decided I could afford a GFC 500 Txi or it could have been a primary G5 later and something else as a backup.

 

[Oldguy]

44 minutes ago, slowflyin said:

Currently, the L3 ESI-500 is not an option, that may change in the future but, it could be a ways off. The Sandia Quattro and the RC Allen 2610 with battery backup meet the requirements of our STC but, the Aspen dealer will need to make their own evaluation since they are signing it off.

I just did the Aspen 1000 PFD Pro and a Sandia Quattro in my J. Aspen dealer installed both, signed off, and no vacuum required for my panel.

Speed brakes are another thing, but they don't need 12 lbs. of stand-by vacuum pump...

[flumag]

not sure what changes with the Aspen MAX but a backup (IAS; ATT, ALT, compass) is still needed with the Evolution 2000 (MFD and PFD)

see installation manual 

Aspen.pdf

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, flumag said:

not sure what changes with the Aspen MAX but a backup (IAS; ATT, ALT, compass) is still needed with the Evolution 2000 (MFD and PFD)

see installation manual 

Aspen.pdf

If you installed the Evolution 2000 MFD with the extended battery, then the IAS and ALT are not required. https://aspenavionics.com/documents/webrepost/900-00012-001 Y EFD ICA.pdf

With the new PFD MAX and the MFD MAX with extended battery the AI is not required either. https://aspenavionics.com/products/general-aviation/efd-1000-pro-max

This game is way to expensive for me not to KNOW the rules.

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Oldguy said:

I just did the Aspen 1000 PFD Pro and a Sandia Quattro in my J. Aspen dealer installed both, signed off, and no vacuum required for my panel.

Speed brakes are another thing, but they don't need 12 lbs. of stand-by vacuum pump...

I did the same. Still have the vacuum pump on the engine... just to drive those damn speed brakes. But the stand-by pump is gone.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I did the same. Still have the vacuum pump on the engine... just to drive those damn speed brakes. But the stand-by pump is gone.

Extra weight but in the tail. Might be nice to just keep the backup pump vs the engine driven as it would probably outlast me...

[flumag]

With the new PFD MAX and the MFD MAX with extended battery the AI is not required either. https://aspenavionics.com/products/general-aviation/efd-1000-pro-max

This game is way to expensive for me not to KNOW the rules.

 

 

Thats what Aspen is aiming for. It will be clear if the Aspen MAX are certified and available. The website is speaking of January now for the certification. But I agree a good step forward.

[Marauder]

19 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

If you installed the Evolution 2000 MFD with the extended battery, then the IAS and ALT are not required. https://aspenavionics.com/documents/webrepost/900-00012-001 Y EFD ICA.pdf

With the new PFD MAX and the MFD MAX with extended battery the AI is not required either. https://aspenavionics.com/products/general-aviation/efd-1000-pro-max

This game is way to expensive for me not to KNOW the rules.

I don't believe the extended battery is a requirement on the Max. The non-Max units required that you had the extended battery in the MFD if you wanted to remove the ASI and altimeter. The AI was always required. Based on what I am reading on their site there is no requirement for an extended battery and all redundant gauges can be removed including the AI.

Aspen site: "Backup indicators are eliminated with the installation of an Evolution MFD1000 MAX multi-function display"

The extended battery is a big deal. It was another $1K for it. I will call them to verify.

[LANCECASPER]

40 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I don't believe the extended battery is a requirement on the Max. The non-Max units required that you had the extended battery in the MFD if you wanted to remove the ASI and altimeter. The AI was always required. Based on what I am reading on their site there is no requirement for an extended battery and all redundant gauges can be removed including the AI.

Aspen site: "Backup indicators are eliminated with the installation of an Evolution MFD1000 MAX multi-function display"

The extended battery is a big deal. It was another $1K for it. I will call them to verify.

Whether they say it is a requirement or not, if I lose my electrical system, $1000 for an Emergency Battery Backup (EBB) might seem cheap if I'm trying to get down through a few layers. Of course that's easy for me to say since I already have one.

[Stanton R]

43 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I don't believe the extended battery is a requirement on the Max. The non-Max units required that you had the extended battery in the MFD if you wanted to remove the ASI and altimeter. The AI was always required. Based on what I am reading on their site there is no requirement for an extended battery and all redundant gauges can be removed including the AI.

Aspen site: "Backup indicators are eliminated with the installation of an Evolution MFD1000 MAX multi-function display"

The extended battery is a big deal. It was another $1K for it. I will call them to verify.

The Max Standard Battery lasts for 4 hours instead of 20 minutes like the older aspens. If you only get the MAX PFD you can get rid of the AI and DG. You still have to keep AS,VSI,ALT, and TC. If you go with the MAX 2000 system you only need the 2 aspens for flight instruments. 

[Marauder]

Whether they say it is a requirement or not, if I lose my electrical system, $1000 for an Emergency Battery Backup (EBB) might seem cheap if I'm trying to get down through a few layers. Of course that's easy for me to say since I already have one.

With an ESI-500 nav enabled unit in my panel, I think I'm covered. It is supposed to be good for 2 hours.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Marauder]

The Max Standard Battery lasts for 4 hours instead of 20 minutes like the older aspens. If you only get the MAX PFD you can get rid of the AI and DG. You still have to keep AS,VSI,ALT, and TC. If you go with the MAX 2000 system you only need the 2 aspens for flight instruments. 

 

On the standard Aspen 2000, you could get rid of the VSI. The turn coordinator I am not sure about. Mine stayed in because it is part of the STEC.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[MIm20c]

5 hours ago, Marauder said:

I don't believe the extended battery is a requirement on the Max. The non-Max units required that you had the extended battery in the MFD if you wanted to remove the ASI and altimeter. The AI was always required. Based on what I am reading on their site there is no requirement for an extended battery and all redundant gauges can be removed including the AI.

At OSH the person answering all the other salesmen’s questions said the external battery is still needed.  Probably a good idea, the battery is huge and will probably run the aspen for a week. 

5 hours ago, Stanton R said:

The Max Standard Battery lasts for 4 hours instead of 20 minutes like the older aspens. If you only get the MAX PFD you can get rid of the AI and DG. You still have to keep AS,VSI,ALT, and TC. If you go with the MAX 2000 system you only need the 2 aspens for flight instruments. 

With the e5 and g5 you need to retain the AS,VSI,ALT, and TC because of the way they were certified. With the aspen pro you need the AI, ALT, and AS. With the pro and 1000mfd w/battery you need to keep the AI. With the max and max mfd/battery you are not required to have backup instruments. 

[DXB]

On 9/26/2018 at 2:27 PM, slowflyin said:

Lesson learned.  In hindsight I should have sourced another shop.  It's tough to change when you have been using the same folks for 15 years.    I did however get a second opinion when they told me no.

Currently, the L3 ESI-500 is not an option, that may change in the future but, it could be a ways off. The Sandia Quattro and the RC Allen 2610 with battery backup meet the requirements of our STC but, the Aspen dealer will need to make their own evaluation since they are signing it off.

 

Best regards,

 

Michael Studley

Director, Customer Service - Field Service Engineering – Northeast Sales

 

 

 

Aspen Avionics

5001 Indian School Rd NE

Albuquerque, NM 87110 USA

 

Office: +1 (603) 617-2886

 

www.aspenavionics.com

Boy I am confused. Is the issue with the ESI-500 backing up the Aspen the same as the one I tried to bring up in this thread?  Seems like everyone thought I was off my rocker, including a rep from Aspen who called me directly.  Any further guidance @StevenL757?

 

 

[Marauder]

20 minutes ago, DXB said:

Boy I am confused. Is the issue with the ESI-500 backing up the Aspen the same as the one I tried to bring up in this thread?  Seems like everyone thought I was off my rocker, including a rep from Aspen who called me directly.  Any further guidance @StevenL757?

You aren't off your rocker, but someone sure is. I am still trying to figure out how you can pull a vacuum AI and install a standalone G5 AI. Yet, an Aspen with a second battery backup AI, driven by a gyro is. And what exactly make a Sandia Quattro legit and the ESI-500 not? Both are AHRS driving units with battery backups. Yeah, yeah, I know. Governmental bureaucracy. Same people who let you a guy with health issues drive a 70,000 rig down the highway, but a pilot with an ingrown toenail needs to be deferred.

Hopefully, the madness will subside for the next generation. 

[DXB]

4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

7 minutes ago, Marauder said:

You aren't off your rocker, but someone sure is. I am still trying to figure out how you can pull a vacuum AI and install a standalone G5 AI. Yet, an Aspen with a second battery backup AI, driven by a gyro is. And what exactly make a Sandia Quattro legit and the ESI-500 not? Both are AHRS driving units with battery backups. Yeah, yeah, I know. Governmental bureaucracy. Same people who let you a guy with health issues drive a 70,000 rig down the highway, but a pilot with an ingrown toenail needs to be deferred.

Hopefully, the madness will subside for the next generation. 

You aren't off your rocker, but someone sure is. I am still trying to figure out how you can pull a vacuum AI and install a standalone G5 AI. Yet, an Aspen with a second battery backup AI, driven by a gyro is. And what exactly make a Sandia Quattro legit and the ESI-500 not? Both are AHRS driving units with battery backups. Yeah, yeah, I know. Governmental bureaucracy. Same people who let you a guy with health issues drive a 70,000 rig down the highway, but a pilot with an ingrown toenail needs to be deferred.

Hopefully, the madness will subside for the next generation. 

I'm kinda hoping this nuttiness subsides sooner rather than later.  I am starting to develop a taste for real IFR and have an avionics install scheduled.  My vac pump and vac-driven AI are a little long in the tooth and replacing/overhauling seems absurd when there are technologically superior options.  Upgrading the Aspen pfd to the Max version seems like a no brainer.   The max mfd becomes a lot of money though, particularly if you need the extended battery (seems pointless since the battery life is 2+ hours without it?) plus the charts subscription plus the unlock fee to get ads-b in and on and on.  The ESI-500 was a serious contender (backup NAV, synth vision) but now that's out too. Looks like it's gonna be the Sandia.  I kinda want to put in a questionably legal G5 and call it a day.  I'm sure there will be a great, reasonably priced solution the day the install is complete.