Looking for budgetary numbers for J avionics total update

[Stephen]

 

I have a friend of mine who is looking for a high-end/clean J model and has been looking at mid-late J's in the 130-200K range. There isn't a lot available right now and what I am seeing even at 200K+ don't have quite as nice a panel as Chris's @Marauder (see the 1998 J model on Trade A Plane @$216 for instance). 

So, what I am looking for is what you guys thing it would cost to take a [steam gauge J with good Airframe and Engine/Prop, autopilot and speed brakes] and go to creampuff dual aspens, new radio stack( GTN or Garmin 530w) , JPI 9XX, good intercom, approach coupled to existing autopilot and Alpha AoA. For realistic numbers do you think $40-50K would get all that out the door installed? 

[hypertech]

I don't think that's realistic if you are talking two GPSs.  With one GPS, and assuming you already have a ADS-B transponder and are not needing that in this update, maybe - but you are still probably pushing that budget.  Find a candidate plane and ask an avionics shop for an estimate.

[Bob_Belville]

10 minutes ago, Stephen said:

 

I have a friend of mine who is looking for a really nice J model and has been looking at mid-late J's toward the upper end of the 150-200K range. There isn't a lot available right now and what I am seeing even at 200K+ don't have quite as nice a panel as Chris's @Marauder (see the 1998 J model on Trade A Plane @$216 for instance). 

So, what I am looking for is what you guys thing it would cost to take a [steam gauge J with good Airframe and Engine/Prop, autopilot and speed brakes] and go to creampuff dual aspens, new radio stack( GTN or Garmin 530w) , JPI 9XX, good intercom, approach coupled to existing autopilot and Alpha AoA. For realistic numbers do you think $40-50K would get all that out the door installed? 

Chris brought his F model's panel to its current gaudy state in several stages. 

I have a lowly E model which has less usable panel space than a J.

The one time upgrade I did 5 years ago got it to about what you're describing.

For about $50k I got a new panel with GDL 88 (ADS-B I/O), Aspen PDF 1000 Pro, Garmin GTN 750, JPI EDM 930, GMA 340, GTX327, CYA100 AOA. (The panel already had a STEC50 and a Stormscope.) Subsequently I added SV, AOA, and ADS-B display to the Aspen and Garmin's FS 510.   

[Stephen]

Thanks Bob, if you go dual aspens, you can drop the ASI, ALT, Airspeed and DirGyro(?), is that correct? Presume that would be about +10K on what you did. 

[Bob_Belville]

4 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Thanks Bob, if you go dual aspens, you can drop the ASI, ALT, Airspeed and DirGyro(?), is that correct? Presume that would be about +10K on what you did. 

Chris could give us that info. @Marauder? My impression is that Aspen has had several deals and that a MFD might not cost $10k. I'm a little vague on what Aspen's STC requires by way of battery BU to make it possible to eliminate the steam AI.

[Stephen]

I think to do a lower end budget one could take your approach and go with a G530W and JPI EDM 900 vs the 930. That would save, a few AMU ... maybe 5-10K ish.... 

[KSMooniac]

I think you'll top $40k just buying the hardware on your wish list, not including installation labor which might be half again as much. And you'll probably need to add more for ADS-B, stormscope, and more "while yer in there" upgrades.

I would at least wait until Oshkosh and see what changes are coming in the market before scheduling anything.

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[toto]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Is your friend in a position to be able to wait a few months for the Dynon SkyView?  I know it isn't certified for us yet but it is far from vapor wear and Dynon has a proven track record. All in perhaps 30K. Worth considering, at least. 

He'd still have to buy the radio stack. A 750 and a second nav/com would be at least $20k plus installation. (A 750+650 combo would be more like 30k plus install.)

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Is your friend in a position to be able to wait a few months for the Dynon SkyView?  I know it isn't certified for us yet but it is far from vapor wear and Dynon has a proven track record. All in perhaps 30K. Worth considering, at least. 

Yes there is probably not a rush per se

[Marauder]

5 hours ago, Stephen said:

Thanks Bob, if you go dual aspens, you can drop the ASI, ALT, Airspeed and DirGyro(?), is that correct? Presume that would be about +10K on what you did. 

 

5 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Chris could give us that info. [mention=9886]Marauder[/mention]? My impression is that Aspen has had several deals and that a MFD might not cost $10k. I'm a little vague on what Aspen's STC requires by way of battery BU to make it possible to eliminate the steam AI.

A dual Aspen with the MFD containing the extended battery pack will allow you to remove the ASI and altimeter. The VSI can be removed with a single Aspen. Aspen still needs to have an AI backup either approved electrical or mechanical. I did mine with L-3 ESI-500.

Aspen usually runs promos during Oshkosh. As well many dealers will provide some incentive. Circle the items you are interested in and I will ball park the costs for you.




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Edited June 19, 2018 by Marauder

[Cruiser]

something like this? Equipment will be a bit more than your target. Plus 5 months installation downtime for me. You can figure labor at about half the hardware cost.

 

[Shadow]

Hi Everybody,

I'm new to both the board and to Mooney ownership and figured this thread was as good place to jump in as any, since this is almost exactly what I am attempting at the moment.

I recently picked up an '87 J with a solid airframe, engine, and interior, but mostly original panel. I thought the vintage of the plane was appropriate since that was probably the year I decided I wanted to own a Mooney someday.

It's currently in the shop having the following added:

Garmin GTN 750

Garmin G5 DG/HSI to replace the mechanical DG and one of the legacy CDIs

Garmin GAD 29B so the G5 can drive the legacy KAP 100 that came with the plane (keeping this for now)

Garmin 345R Transponder (ADS-B)

JPI EDM-930 (to replace most of the legacy engine instruments)

With any luck, this will be my "forever plane."

Before and after pictures to follow... Nice to be a part of the group!

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Shadow!

Panel updates are accelerating in technology...and increasing in the rate they are being introduced...

Update your avatar when you get a chance... add a pic and location (west coast?) so people will remember you a bit better...

Best regards,

-a-

[Stephen]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

A dual Aspen with the MFD containing the extended battery pack will allow you to remove the ASI and altimeter. The VSI can be removed with a single Aspen. Aspen still needs to have an AI backup either approved electrical or mechanical. I did mine with L-3 ESI-500.

Aspen usually runs promos during Oshkosh. As well many dealers will provide some incentive. Circle the items you are interested in and I will ball park the costs for you.




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Thanks Chris!! I'll try to edit the photo when I get to work. 

[Stephen]

4 hours ago, Shadow said:

Hi Everybody,

I'm new to both the board and to Mooney ownership and figured this thread was as good place to jump in as any, since this is almost exactly what I am attempting at the moment.

I recently picked up an '86 J with a solid airframe, engine, and interior, but mostly original panel for somewhere in the 90 AMU range. I thought the vintage of the plane was appropriate since that was probably the year I decided I wanted to own a Mooney someday.

It's currently in the shop having the following added:

Garmin GTN 750

Garmin G5 DG/HSI to replace the mechanical DG and one of the legacy CDIs

Garmin GAD 29B so the G5 can drive the legacy KAP 100 that came with the plane (keeping this for now)

Garmin 345R Transponder (ADS-B)

JPI EDM-930 (to replace most of the legacy engine instruments)

With any luck, this will be my "forever plane."

Before and after pictures to follow... Nice to be a part of the group!

Welcome aboard Shadow! You've come to a *great* place ...."space"!!   Phenomenal group here!

[Stephen]

10 hours ago, Marauder said:

Circle the items you are interested in and I will ball park the costs for you.

Chris, did I recall you had an AoA or am I mistaken? If so do you have a photo that includes it (if it is on the glareshield or if I circled it above the L3)

 

[gsxrpilot]

I think Chris's @Marauder AoA is in the Aspen.

A full avionics upgrade without touching the current autopilot... is probably a $60K project.  But could go to $80K really quickly.

I did my "full" panel upgrade for about $24K but it included some heavy owner involvement to keep down costs. A number of the new instruments were second hand, and others were acquired via trade-in for original equipment that still had some value.

[Stephen]

8 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I think Chris's @Marauder AoA is in the Aspen.

Thanks Paul, I'm sure that is the case, should have thought of that. 

[Oldguy]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I think Chris's @Marauder AoA is in the Aspen.

A full avionics upgrade without touching the current autopilot... is probably a $60K project.  But could go to $80K really quickly.

I did my "full" panel upgrade for about $24K but it included some heavy owner involvement to keep down costs. A number of the new instruments were second hand, and others were acquired via trade-in for original equipment that still had some value.

I will second what Paul wrote.

I just had my '84 J in the shop and had an Aspen EFD 1000 w/ synthetic vision/AOA/EA 100, new 406 ELT, PMA 450B audio panel, Sandia 340 Quattro, KAS 297B Altitude pre-select/VSS, and KEA 130A (for the KAS 297B) installed. At the same time, I had my 430W sent off to Garmin for refurb, pulled my stand-by vacuum, AI, HSI, T&B, a TON of dead wiring and unused antennas, and took out my AV-300 XM weather receiver. I ended up gaining nearly 20 lbs. of UL and lightened my wallet by almost exactly the same amount as @gsxrpilot. Since then I have recovered a little over $2,000 by selling those items I removed.

Of the items I listed, only the Aspen, ELT and PMA 450B were new, and those I got with Sun-n-Fun pricing. If you want all new avionics, it can easily eat up $40-50K plus a bunch more, but if you are patient, look for discounts or deals from manufacturers, and have a little luck, it is doable within your budget. But throw in an autopilot, and it all goes out the window.

[Marauder]

Thanks Paul, I'm sure that is the case, should have thought of that. 

Stephen - you sitting down? If not, you should be...

Here is what it feels like:



Let me preface the picture below. Costs for avionics installations will vary wildly depending on what you are doing at the time. An example, installing an audio panel is very labor intensive. It needs to be wired to everything that uses it. If you elect to put in a new avionics panel with your old radios and then a year later upgrade your radios, you will essentially be paying twice for the installations.

My advice:

1) If there is even a remote chance you will be selling this plane within 10 years, DON’T do a major avionics upgrade. You’ll never get your money back out. Fix what you have and don’t try to keep up with the Jones’s.
2) Think ahead on what you want your panel to look like. If you have aspirations of installing an Aspen or Garmin G500 TXi along with other radio upgrades, save up and do it all at once. Every time your panel is opened, you will incur costs, often duplicate costs.
3) Don’t get caught up in the whiz bang of avionics. You can spend a fortune on avionics. Make sure you have a need for it or you truly want it to enhance your flying.
4) Don’t finance avionics upgrades. If you need to finance, you have no business doing the upgrades.
5) Understand the difference between a quote and an estimate. DO NOT accept an estimate for an upgrade. If necessary, take the plane to the shop and have them look over everything before they issue the quote. When I had my STEC 60-2 installed in 1998, the shop tried to stick with me another $2,000 of “unexpected work”. I had a quote and refused the additional cost - READ THE FINE PRINT ON ANYTHING YOU GET IN WRITING FROM THE AVIONICS SHOP!!
6) Make sure your significant other is supportive. If not, an avionics upgrade can drive a wedge between you.

I’m sure there are others who can share their rules.

The prices below are ballpark. I recall that the avionics shop wanted $3,600 for the installation of one Aspen. When I decided on two, they wanted to charge $7,200. I argued successfully for a lot lower second installation charge since the plane was already opened and it was just a matter of the additional connections. There will be these kinds of discussion to understand and happen up front (see #5 above).

The cost below also doesn’t include any new panels made for you and labor to move things around to new homes (which may require rewiring). Avionics upgrades are NOT for the weak and certainly not for those who have weak finances.



P.S. I have two AoAs in the plane. The panel mounted one and the one of the Aspen.


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[Oldguy]

11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I’m sure there are others who can share their rules.

@Marauder has some great advice above. I only have a few thoughts to add.

1. If given the choice of two fairly similar quotes (cost, time, quality, etc.) choose the one closest to your home base. Yes, I might have saved about 5-10% if I had gone to a competing avionics shop an hour or so away, but every time I would have had a problem in the future, I would have had the choice of flying (if possible) to get it worked on by the distant shop, or having the avionics shop on the field work on something they didn't install. I see these guys every time I am at the airport, and I have had them drop what they were doing to help me or a friend who had a small avionics problem.

2. (Expanding on #2 above) If you are doing panel upgrades in phases, do as much pre-wiring as possible the first time you have it opened up. Or as the old line goes, start with the end in mind.

3. If a shop says they will take credit cards, ask for a 3% discount for paying with a check.

4. As a supplement to #6 above, putting a USB charging outlet in front of the copilot never hurts. 

[NJMac]

Don't allow a shop to go time and materials. Im finding out now that is asking to be taken advantage of.

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[NJMac]

I asked to audit his times so we met today. Here was one of the pages he gave me. Clear as mud. Dont be like me. Sign a written proposal with a hard number first.

Don't allow a shop to go time and materials. Im finding out now that is asking to be taken advantage of.

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[smccray]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:



 

 

The JPI 900 @ $4,500 looks light to me as a fresh install.  It's 40 hrs of labor to do the install plus the cost of the equipment.

[Marauder]

26 minutes ago, NJMac said:

I asked to audit his times so we met today. Here was one of the pages he gave me. Clear as mud. Dont be like me. Sign a written proposal with a hard number first.

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OUCH! OUCH! OUCH! Based on $100 avionics shop rate that is $19,375 for labor. At $80 that is still $15,500. What did you have installed?