Releew Posted April 26, 2018 Report Posted April 26, 2018 Since this site is about sharing knowledge I just got a "T" shirt in Flap Troubleshooting. About 2 months ago my flaps would not retract from landing position. I removed the belly pan and did all the normal stuff as in making sure the switches were tight and the contacts were actually depressing. This along with Electronic Cleaner and magically they started working again. until last Saturday.... Same situation. They would not retract from the Landing Position. We dropped the belly cover again this time with the plane on jacks and a comfortable creeper. I wanted to painstakingly go through every switch. I checked each switch for continuity and alignment, all good. Still the flaps would not retract. So what creates an intermittent problem.... Hmmm a relay! Yes... there are two permissive relays on a circuit board. With the flaps still stuck in the down position I taped on the relays with a screwdriver and up the flaps went! I could not find the exact brand but I was able to cross match it to a potter-brumfield part which I use a lot for control panels. There are six solder locations per relay and dropping the board is a PITA. But..... knowing the flaps will retract at a destination away from hope was worth every minute to get it corrected. Rick 2 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted April 26, 2018 Report Posted April 26, 2018 I'm interested in more details. I also had flaps not retract once last year. After wiggling I was able to get them up. I later cleaned up the contacts with contact cleaner and figured (hoped) it was a done deal. Is this board on the flap motor? Did you solder it yourself? I wonder what shops like Maxwell do, do they have someone who rebuilds them? -Robert Quote
Releew Posted April 26, 2018 Author Report Posted April 26, 2018 See below. It is not attached to the flap motor. The relays are on a circuit board. They are sealed relays....electronic cleaner will do you no good on this...... A relay contact can hang up/stick after so many cycles. This is an interment problem. Don is a fair guy. I'm sure he would be reasonable, to remove and replace the relays. You first need to run a continuity test on each switch and make sure it is activated at each travel limit. If you see continuity on each switch at the travel stop position it can only be the relays. The panel switch is very robust... not saying it cannot go bad but I see it as unlikely. 1 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted April 26, 2018 Report Posted April 26, 2018 Thanks. I'll take a look at this next time. I did try to lubricate the switch lever itself with contact cleaner. I'm out in California so if I decide to solder a new relay I'd probably do it myself or find someone closer to send it off to. -Robert Quote
Yetti Posted April 27, 2018 Report Posted April 27, 2018 Flap switch on a 75 F is located about 4 inches behind the throttle quadrant connected to the flap lever with a rod. 1 Quote
Jim Peace Posted April 27, 2018 Report Posted April 27, 2018 I never had this problem. Here is my flap return circuit. 1 Quote
RobertGary1 Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 @Jim PeaceIt always surprised me how the simple manual gear Mooney has the most convoluted, complex hydraulic flap system. Why not just another handle to operate the flaps ala an Arrow? -Robert Quote
Hank Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 Just now, RobertGary1 said: @Jim PeaceIt always surprised me how the simple manual gear Mooney has the most convoluted, complex hydraulic flap system. Why not just another handle to operate the flaps ala an Arrow? -Robert They have convoluted flaps down system, but simple flaps up per the photo above. My old Mooney has a simple flap mechanism in both directions, I just hold that little switch over in the direction I want the flaps to move, and they move until either I let go or the end of travel is reached. Push it down for Flaps Down, push it up for Flaps Up. Simple. Quote
Andy95W Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said: @Jim PeaceIt always surprised me how the simple manual gear Mooney has the most convoluted, complex hydraulic flap system. Why not just another handle to operate the flaps ala an Arrow? -Robert ??? Convoluted, complex? Compared to electric motors, switches, and micro Switches? I don't agree. It seems complex until you've flown with it and worked on it. Quote
triple8s Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 If you call Mooney like I did when I had trouble with flap retraction on my 1996 M20R they may try to sell you a new board with new relays. Said they didn't sell the relays separately and they had a new p/n for the board with relays. The cost? A bit over 1600$ ! 1 Quote
Yetti Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 9 hours ago, Andy95W said: ??? Convoluted, complex? Compared to electric motors, switches, and micro Switches? I don't agree. It seems complex until you've flown with it and worked on it. depend if you are good with lectricity or good with valves and fluids. both have their merits/drawbacks and some are good with both. One your hands stay cleaner working with. 1 Quote
Cyril Gibb Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 9 hours ago, triple8s said: If you call Mooney like I did when I had trouble with flap retraction on my 1996 M20R they may try to sell you a new board with new relays. Said they didn't sell the relays separately and they had a new p/n for the board with relays. The cost? A bit over 1600$ ! DigiKey # 255-1878-ND $4.32 USD Quote
carusoam Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 In the following ‘theoretical’ situation... While on the ground, in a Long Body... 1) you put the flap switch in the T/O position, nothing moves... 2) put the flap switch all the way down... flaps head towards the down position... 3) put the flap switch in the T/O position... flaps retract perfectly to the T/O position... What is the likely cause for the flaps to not like going to the T/O position from full up? relays prox switches flap switch There are about 1600 hours on these items... Best regards, -a- Quote
Cyril Gibb Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 23 minutes ago, carusoam said: What is the likely cause for the flaps to not like going to the T/O position from full up? One of the TakeOff switches located on the flap relay circuit board. 1 Quote
Andy95W Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 6 hours ago, Yetti said: depend if you are good with lectricity or good with valves and fluids. both have their merits/drawbacks and some are good with both. One your hands stay cleaner working with. Yeah, good point. I like the hydraulic flaps, but you should've seen the mess I made when I had them all apart. And my wife hates the smell of 5606 after working in the industry herself! Quote
Yetti Posted April 28, 2018 Report Posted April 28, 2018 8 hours ago, carusoam said: In the following ‘theoretical’ situation... While on the ground, in a Long Body... 1) you put the flap switch in the T/O position, nothing moves... 2) put the flap switch all the way down... flaps head towards the down position... 3) put the flap switch in the T/O position... flaps retract perfectly to the T/O position... What is the likely cause for the flaps to not like going to the T/O position from full up? relays prox switches flap switch There are about 1600 hours on these items... Best regards, -a- In the F contact cleaner and the limit switch exercise fixed this problem 1 Quote
LANCECASPER Posted April 29, 2018 Report Posted April 29, 2018 On 4/26/2018 at 5:24 PM, Releew said: See below. It is not attached to the flap motor. The relays are on a circuit board. They are sealed relays....electronic cleaner will do you no good on this...... A relay contact can hang up/stick after so many cycles. This is an interment problem. Don is a fair guy. I'm sure he would be reasonable, to remove and replace the relays. You first need to run a continuity test on each switch and make sure it is activated at each travel limit. If you see continuity on each switch at the travel stop position it can only be the relays. The panel switch is very robust... not saying it cannot go bad but I see it as unlikely. On this post above, if you go to the last post on page 4 I found the relays for my 1993 M20M. One was bad, but replaced them both for a small amount. They have been working great since. It looks like yours are available for $6 each. https://www.electronicsurplus.com/nais-aromat-jt1e-tmp-b-dc24v-relay-control-spdt-20amp-24vdc 1 Quote
bradp Posted April 29, 2018 Report Posted April 29, 2018 I think there’s even a regulatory provision for replacement of standard electric parts with some sort of standard, tested but not TSOd replacements (relays and diodes fall in the same category as lightbulbs). Quote
triple8s Posted April 30, 2018 Report Posted April 30, 2018 https://octopart.com/jt1e-dc24v-panasonic-49068398 Just a smidge less than 1600$ if you buy solder, solder gun, roll of masking tape, sharpie, wire cutters/strippers, heat shrink, and 300 Gal of 100LL for the test flying. Oh n still have change for a half gallon of milk n a box of chips ahoy for the hangar fairies. 1 Quote
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