At a cross road

[Dream to fly]

I am getting all my parts and pieces ready to do a panel upgrade but have reached a point of total frustration and exhaustion.  I WANT it right but can seem to afford right so I find myself compromising.  I need to tread cautiously and not end up like I was a year ago trying to keep the dumb thing flying without sinking the bank account or pissing off the wife for the millionth time.   I have old everything and a lot has to go.  I already have tested and ready with 8130 forms:

Garmin SL30 with a G106A

Garmin 327 transponder

Garmin 530W

PMA 8000B

EDM 900 (pending the Oshkosh sale with @Aerodon)

Airspeed indicator

The problem I have is I would like to have an auto pilot but I have a Brittan system that hold wings level and it works.  I know that system is gone once it breaks and to update it is silly.  So I think removing all vacuum driven gauges, servos, lines and pump makes sense.  But going glass is stupid expensive and going electric gauges doesn't seem to be much better.  The plan that was thrown to me is to keep the following:

Airspeed indicator

Altimeter

PMA 8000B

Garmin SL-30 linked to a KI209 (instead of the G106A sell it for 1500. and by a KI209)  Still not sure why I would do this???

Garmin 530W linked to a G5 HSI

Install an Electric attitude indicator with battery backup

Install a G5 attitude indicator with GPS driver for a later update for Garmin AP

Install the 900 EDM

Sell the Garmin 327 for beans and install a 345

All this to the tune of close to 32K.  I have to be missing something.   There has to be a cheaper way,  or is this the norm?

 

[Dream to fly]

I wish I had an answer ... I feel your pain ... after throwing 50 k into a 40 k C model ... we’re about lose lose our shirt selling our C and buy an AeroStar. Wish I had bought that to start with!

That is a nice step up. I'm sure the M20C served you well. I'm never going to recover from what I spent and I found out education is expensive. I made my bed so I will sleep in it. I will squeeze my F model for everything it can give and if it blows up at least I did it. I just don't want to spend for things I don't need. I will when licensed fly IFR. I will need it to be faster, but do I really need what I presume to be bells and whistles. I sometimes get caught up in all the good looking panels...

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[McMooney]

i'm thinking of installing a garmin 255a and a 300xl this year and just calling it a day.  avionics are stupidly expensive.

[Heloman]

Sounds like a great setup, but you’re right it’d be nice to have an auto pilot after all that. I love my accutrak2 driven by the 430, why do you think it can’t be repaired? Maybe you can get a upgrade to your brittain to hold you over until something better comes out?

 

 

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[Marauder]

I am getting all my parts and pieces ready to do a panel upgrade but have reached a point of total frustration and exhaustion.  I WANT it right but can seem to afford right so I find myself compromising.  I need to tread cautiously and not end up like I was a year ago trying to keep the dumb thing flying without sinking the bank account or pissing off the wife for the millionth time.   I have old everything and a lot has to go.  I already have tested and ready with 8130 forms:

Garmin SL30 with a G106A

Garmin 327 transponder

Garmin 530W

PMA 8000B

EDM 900 (pending the Oshkosh sale with [mention=12412]Aerodon[/mention])

Airspeed indicator

The problem I have is I would like to have an auto pilot but I have a Brittan system that hold wings level and it works.  I know that system is gone once it breaks and to update it is silly.  So I think removing all vacuum driven gauges, servos, lines and pump makes sense.  But going glass is stupid expensive and going electric gauges doesn't seem to be much better.  The plan that was thrown to me is to keep the following:

Airspeed indicator

Altimeter

PMA 8000B

Garmin SL-30 linked to a KI209 (instead of the G106A sell it for 1500. and by a KI209)  Still not sure why I would do this???

Garmin 530W linked to a G5 HSI

Install an Electric attitude indicator with battery backup

Install a G5 attitude indicator with GPS driver for a later update for Garmin AP

Install the 900 EDM

Sell the Garmin 327 for beans and install a 345

All this to the tune of close to 32K.  I have to be missing something.   There has to be a cheaper way,  or is this the norm?

 

 

My advice is; take your time. Don’t go overboard until you know whether the plane is something you will hang onto for a while.

 

For me, the first few years, it was doing minimal upgrades to address aging avionics (replaced a KX-170B) or added safety items (engine analyzer, fuel totalizer) and that was it. I didn’t have a reliable autopilot for the first 7 years of ownership - and I was flying IFR all the time. The STEC was the first major upgrade I did. Then for the next 14 years, it was keeping the steam and old avionics running. In 2012, I was at a crossroads. Sell what I had and buy something different or upgrade a plane I was knew was solid and for my kind of flying served my needs? By then I had saved enough to do a pretty aggressive upgrade.

 

Develop a plan based on your genuine needs followed by your wants. If you are IFR, concentrate on the basics to do that. With the new autopilots on the horizon, I would hold off for a year or two and let them roll out. By then you should have been able to save up for the autopilot upgrade. It’s not a race...

 

 

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[BKlott]

You have asked the “million dollar question” or at least the “buying the airplane all over again” question. 

Two years ago I faced a similar dilemma. My airplane had original paint, interior, glass, lots of cracked plastics, legacy avionics and was due for a prop overhaul and balancing. Plus the 2020 deadline needed to be addressed. Financially, it made no sense whatsoever to spend that kind of money on the airplane. My Dad would have told me to sell the airplane and then buy a different one with newer paint, interior, avionics and lower engine time. Even if I had to spend a bit more, I would be ahead of the game. Actually, he would have said “sell that stupid thing and get a better airplane”.

Then he died and I found that it isn’t easy to lose your Dad and then sell the last airplane that you owned together and the last airplane that he would ever fly.

I decided for non-financial reasons to spend the money and fix up the airplane. New paint, leather interior, tinted glass with UV screen, fiberglass fairings, overhauled and dynamically balanced prop, new seat rails, etc. My legacy gear all works so I see no reason to change it. I don’t feel that I need the “latest and greatest” to enjoy my airplane. I use an iFly 740 portable WAAS GPS and I added a Lynx 9000 NGT for ADS-B in and out. Now I have on board weather and traffic.

I have well over $100,000 into this 1975 172M which we purchased back in 2001 at the peak of the market.

Clearly I will never recover what I have in the airplane. I knew that going in. I think that if we keep our airplanes long enough AND spend the money to improve or maintain their condition, we will all eventually become financially upside down in our airplanes.

Some folks will let things go. They won’t spend the money on paint, interior, avionics, etc. Then when they are faced with the engine job, they’ll want to sell the airplane. By then, the airplane has such a diminished value that it is no longer financially viable to fix it up and make it a nice airplane again. Off to the scrap yard or it just sits and rots on the ramp.

You can make a financial argument to treat used airplanes as disposable items. Use them up then sell them for whatever you can get and buy another. But if everyone does that, eventually we’ll run out of airplanes. Somebody has to be willing to spend their money maintaining the condition and value of the airplane. It is really that simple. Spending a lot of money on your F model Mooney is still a lot less expensive than buying a new Mooney.

If you proceed with the proposed upgrade and then get caught with an engine job...something to consider...how will that impact your budget and how will your wife feel?

Hopefully these comments will be of some benefit to you. Let us know how it turns out.

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by BKlott

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Dream to fly said:

All this to the tune of close to 32K.  I have to be missing something.   There has to be a cheaper way,  or is this the norm?

 

What’s the break down for the above quote? I’d personally find a used 330es for under 2k, replace the sl30/106 with a sl40, and think about a jpi 700/730 instead of the 900 if you are worried about the total cost. Things can always be added later. If your current gauges are working a non primary jpi can provide a lot of valuable information. 

[Dream to fly]

1 hour ago, BKlott said:

If you proceed with the proposed upgrade and then get caught with an engine job...something to consider...how will that impact your budget and how will your wife feel?

Hopefully these comments will be of some benefit to you. Let us know how it turns out.

 

 

Haven't told the wife but if the engine goes I am removing the type Certification and putting in an IO540 and putting to bed all the nah Sayers that say you can't cause I will

[Dream to fly]

50 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

What’s the break down for the above quote? I’d personally find a used 330es for under 2k, replace the sl30/106 with a sl40, and think about a jpi 700/730 instead of the 900 if you are worried about the total cost. Things can always be added later. If your current gauges are working a non primary jpi can provide a lot of valuable information. 

That's just it I can't seem to get a straight answer.  If I do the numbers and I buy the components for retail I come up with 18K.  When I ask if labor is 14K I get blank stares.  I'm supplying the panel and all the equipment and the interior strip down.  I figured 2 weeks or 80 hours.  that is 8K.  wire and connectors are not 6K.  I really think it could be done in a week but I wire semi trucks not planes so I maybe off.

[MB65E]

That’s Awesome!!! 

Anyone know the side wall thickness of the front longerons? Also, how much difference is their between the vintage longerons and current production. Same tubes? 

I know several that have put 540s on stock Christian eagles &  S1’s. The trick is to move the firewall back and keep the crank flange in the same spot. All ultra challenging on the Early M20’s.

You could see the delta between the late model airframes and the J models that rocket engineering played with. I wouldn’t worry about certification and strictly have it in the EE category. 

That would be one fun airplane. 

A while ago I believe saw an E model with a 550 on it. I can’t remember the airframe. 

-Matt

[MB65E]

I’d find another Avioncs guy!

or start on the project yourself. All of the installation instructions make sense to normal people. Then work alongside with an A&P. None of it is a major alteration. 

The only thing I have a hard time with is the comm wires comm 1&2 Hi and LO, mic, transmit blah blah. Everyone I’ve talked to has the same issue. Older equipment is easier.  Everything else is identified well. I’ve done several radio installs, and a few gtn installs. While l have my IA, it’s not much harder when wiring up a car stereo with multiple components or networks. I’m sure your Truck harnesses are more complex. Just keep your standard really high, and use real aircraft wire, terminals, and read the manual. 

-Matt

[gsxrpilot]

My approach was this...

1. Don't do anything that you'll have to do again later.
2. Do the most important things first.

For me this would mean buying the EDM900 and installing it yourself under the supervision of an A&P. I wouldn't go less than the EDM900 because when the stock gauges go, you'll have to do it anyway. That violates rule number one.  And based on rule number two, the most important thing will be to protect the most expensive component of your airplane and that is the engine.  

I want to fly and fly as much as I can. I know that for me, having a good engine monitor with data logging, will help me treat my engine right and prolong it's life. And prolonging the life of my engine is the first and most important step to saving money in aviation.

Everything else is nice to have... and granted some of it is VERY nice to have. But the engine monitor will pay dividends on the next hour of flight time. And while it's a labor intensive install, it's about the easiest candidate for an owner install.

That's my $0.02

[65MooneyPilot]

I would look into an Approach systems hub for installation of the avionics. They will build you all the harnesses you need and the you just plug them in. The power and ground wires are separate. The good part is when you want to make a change you only have to change one harness not the whole thing. 

www.approachfaststack.com

[Dream to fly]

12 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

My approach was this...

1. Don't do anything that you'll have to do again later.
2. Do the most important things first.

For me this would mean buying the EDM900 and installing it yourself under the supervision of an A&P. I wouldn't go less than the EDM900 because when the stock gauges go, you'll have to do it anyway. That violates rule number one.  And based on rule number two, the most important thing will be to protect the most expensive component of your airplane and that is the engine.  

I want to fly and fly as much as I can. I know that for me, having a good engine monitor with data logging, will help me treat my engine right and prolong it's life. And prolonging the life of my engine is the first and most important step to saving money in aviation.

Everything else is nice to have... and granted some of it is VERY nice to have. But the engine monitor will pay dividends on the next hour of flight time. And while it's a labor intensive install, it's about the easiest candidate for an owner install.

That's my $0.02

That's just it.  I had an 830 but sold it cause the 900 is primary with fuel and is better.  I just don't want to keep going in circles and I keep learning after the fact no matter how much I read there is always more to find out.   

I think I am going to pull the Millennial Card.  "has to be somebodies fault it can't be mine"  So I am picking @Marauder and @GSXRPilot.   They have some really nice panels so I think they should sponsor my panel.  Fair is Fair...  LMAO  

I'll get there but some of this is just frustrating.  Flying is supposed to be fun and lately it has become a Pain in my butt.

[1964-M20E]

Yes find another shop.

Take it one step at a time.  Yes it is nice to do as much as you can when you are there but sometimes you just need to take time.

New avionics are changing quick old avionics are a given but have their issues.  All I can say is don't rush to buy something just because is sounds like a good deal.  Be patient and methodical plan out what you want to do and find the most economical path forward.  sometimes finding out what toys will play nice together is the biggest battle in deciding what you want in the plane.

Finally, if you have something installed that is working and useful consider keeping it instead of replacing it after all we are here to spend money to actually fly not get ready to fly or dream about flying.

[Marauder]

That's just it.  I had an 830 but sold it cause the 900 is primary with fuel and is better.  I just don't want to keep going in circles and I keep learning after the fact no matter how much I read there is always more to find out.   
I think I am going to pull the Millennial Card.  "has to be somebodies fault it can't be mine"  So I am picking @Marauder and@GSXRPilot.   They have some really nice panels so I think they should sponsor my panel.  Fair is Fair...  LMAO  
I'll get there but some of this is just frustrating.  Flying is supposed to be fun and lately it has become a Pain in my butt.

Let us pick up your student loans while we’re at it.


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[Guest]

Doesn’t Stein Air do pre made harnesses as well?

Clarence

[Candy man]

7 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

That's just it.  I had an 830 but sold it cause the 900 is primary with fuel and is better.  I just don't want to keep going in circles and I keep learning after the fact no matter how much I read there is always more to find out.   

I think I am going to pull the Millennial Card.  "has to be somebodies fault it can't be mine"  So I am picking @Marauder and @GSXRPilot.   They have some really nice panels so I think they should sponsor my panel.  Fair is Fair...  LMAO  

I'll get there but some of this is just frustrating.  Flying is supposed to be fun and lately it has become a Pain in my butt.

Question: if the 900 needs a repair and you've removed the old fuel gauges aren't you grounded? Isn't the 830 and the old gauges a reasonable option? Just asking trying to figure out what is best for myself.

 

 

[Dream to fly]

Question: if the 900 needs a repair and you've removed the old fuel gauges aren't you grounded? Isn't the 830 and the old gauges a reasonable option? Just asking trying to figure out what is best for myself.
 
 

Technically yes.


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[75_M20F]

23 hours ago, David Herman said:

I wish I had an answer ... I feel your pain ... after throwing 50 k  ... no 60 k into a C model we paid 40.5k for  ... we’re about lose our shirt selling our C and buy an AeroStar. Wish I had bought that to start with!

Trading in a C for an Aerostar? That's quite a jump!

[kortopates]

15 hours ago, Candy man said:

Question: if the 900 needs a repair and you've removed the old fuel gauges aren't you grounded? Isn't the 830 and the old gauges a reasonable option? Just asking trying to figure out what is best for myself.

False sense of economics IMO - as in penny wise and pound foolish. If you're going to use that logic then you also have to recognize that with the original gauges and a 830 you are grounded if an original gauge (take your pick) fails. The 830, as nice as it is,  but it doesn't legally replace any of your OEM gauges.

But reality is the EDM 900 is far more reliable then your OEM gauges. And should you have a probe failure or the like, you'll be back up and running right away and likely at far less expense that trying to get your old unobtanium gauges repaired or replaced. Most importantly you wont have to waste more money on some TSO'd dedicated replacement gauge like a new digital RPM or MAP gauge because your old one can't be repaired.

Make the investment, it pays for itself over time and adds real resale value to the plane.

Edited April 7, 2018 by kortopates

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, ABCDEF said:

Trading in a C for an Aerostar? That's quite a jump!

I'll say, that like going from getting your toes wet to diving into the deep end! Congrats @David Herman

[Chris from PA]

Dynon certified SkyView HDX. Gives you the engine monitor, autopilot, ADS-B, synthetic vision, angle of attack and more. Probably $30K all in. Add in a used G530W and you'll be set for a decade or more. You'll have to wait though, Mooneys aren't on the AML yet

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[Browncbr1]

19 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Let us pick up your student loans while we’re at it.


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No no.  No direct contributions.   That would be in poor form.   The proper way for a millennial to operate is by a gofundme!  

[Dream to fly]

No no.  No direct contributions.   That would be in poor form.   The proper way for a millennial to operate is by a gofundme!  

This is going to get ugly. Lol. Just so everyone knows I'm a Gen X.


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