Garmin GFC500 for M20

[Diesel 10]

This was announced a couple of weeks ago so apologies if this was mentioned already.  I'm excited to see that Garmin has at least said that Mooney is on the Certification list.  As an owner struggling to keep my KFC150 alive, this is good news.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional

GFC 500 Certification Programs Planned to Begin in the Next 12-months:

(Not currently under development and subject to change.)

• Beechcraft Bonanza/Debonair
  • Models: C33, C33A, E33, E33A, E33C, F33, F33A, F33C, G33
• Cessna 210
  • Models: 210L, T210L, 210M, T210M, 210N, T210N
• Mooney M20
  • Models: To be determined
• Piper PA-32
  • Model: 301T

[aviatoreb]

23 minutes ago, Diesel 10 said:

This was announced a couple of weeks ago so apologies if this was mentioned already.  I'm excited to see that Garmin has at least said that Mooney is on the Certification list.  As an owner struggling to keep my KFC150 alive, this is good news.

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional

GFC 500 Certification Programs Planned to Begin in the Next 12-months:

(Not currently under development and subject to change.)

• Beechcraft Bonanza/Debonair
  • Models: C33, C33A, E33, E33A, E33C, F33, F33A, F33C, G33
• Cessna 210
  • Models: 210L, T210L, 210M, T210M, 210N, T210N
• Mooney M20
  • Models: To be determined
• Piper PA-32
  • Model: 301T

Right - so it will begin in 12 months.  Ready when?  Like 18 mos?  This is the one I want but I wish I could know if m20k will be on the list.

[MIm20c]

5 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Right - so it will begin in 12 months.  Ready when?  Like 18 mos?  This is the one I want but I wish I could know if m20k will be on the list.

Garmin already has thousands of hours with AP’s in Mooney aircraft with the 700. I’d imagine the list will populate quickly the only question being where the 500/600 cutoff is.  My guess is your K will have a Garmin option available before osh ‘19. 

[kortopates]

Got an email from Garmin today that they began shipping the GFC500 for C172's.
I have a KFC150 too, but consider the GFC 500 will be a downgrade and think it will take the GFC 600 to be an upgrade at the capability level of the GFC700 for the G1000. But it will take some time to assess.


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[cnoe]

Many of us were sweating bullets that the GFC500 wouldn't be STC'd for the M20 so the news is certainly good.

It's also a good sign that the GFC600 list makes no mention of Mooneys. The poor Bonanza 36 guys are getting stuck with the more expensive 600.

They also state that anything with a G1000 doesn't qualify for the 500 OR 600. I wouldn't be surprised if that remains the case.

The GFC600 supported-aircraft list is as follows (from Garmin):

 

 

Aircraft Models Currently Approved for GFC 600 Installation:

• Beechcraft Baron
  • Models: B55, B55A
• Beechcraft Bonanza
  • Models: 36, A36, A36TC
• Cessna 182
  • Models: P, Q, R, S, T, T182, T182T

GFC 600 Certification Programs Currently In-progress:

(Subject to change.)

• Beechcraft Baron
  • Models: 58, 58TC, 58P (excluding 1984 and 1985 model year 58P)
• Cessna 340
  • Models: 340, 340A

GFC 600 Certification Programs Planned to Begin in the Next 12-months:

(Not currently under development and subject to change.)

• Cessna 414
  • Model: 414A
• Cessna 421
  • Model: 421C
• Cessna Grand Caravan
  • Model: 208B
• Piper PA-46
  • Models: 310P, 350P*
• Socata TBM
  • Models: 700, A, B, C1, C2, N (TBM 850)

Please note that G1000® equipped aircraft are excluded from the list above.

[ArtVandelay]

Got an email from Garmin today that they began shipping the GFC500 for C172's.

My avionics shop just shake their heads, apparently 172 owners don’t upgrade avionics, they wished they started with P, M or B brands, they have a line of waiting customers.
Right now they don’t have any.

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Garmin already has thousands of hours with AP’s in Mooney aircraft with the 700. I’d imagine the list will populate quickly the only question being where the 500/600 cutoff is.  My guess is your K will have a Garmin option available before osh ‘19. 

.... I want it in Jan 19!

[johncuyle]

This product stack doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The 500&600 are both certified for the 182, but the 210 and M20 only get the 500? If they certified both for the 182 you'd expect that both will eventually be available for at least everything J and up in the M20 line. I think the GFC-500 would probably be a nice autopilot for my K and a good replacement for my KFC-200, but the G5 seems kind of low rent for J, K, or Bravos. The price jump to the GFC-600 is daunting, but if someone might be willing to shove a G500TXi and GFC600 in a 182P then it doesn't seem unlikely that they'd finds some Encore and Bravo drivers who would be willing to spend the money.


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[aviatoreb]

I wouldn’t say the g5 is low rent.  Big jump from the ki256.

price is good - http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/gfc500-with-g5-attitude-indicator-and-g5-hsi

[johncuyle]

I wouldn’t say the g5 is low rent.  Big jump from the ki256.
price is good - http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/gfc500-with-g5-attitude-indicator-and-g5-hsi

It is, but I want something like G3X or Dynon Skyview.


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[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, johncuyle said:

It is, but I want something like G3X or Dynon Skyview.


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G3X is sometime off.

I am sort of on the fence of a complete panel remake for 30k when I already have mostly what I want - only the autopilot ...and I love the ESP of the Garmin system.  And the straight and level.  Dynon does not have the ESP.  Anyway it is a much less invasive install I would think.  Anyway when actual options are available....

G3X is not available so its not in the mix.  MAYBE something will be announced at Oshkosh?

[johncuyle]

G3X is sometime off.
I am sort of on the fence of a complete panel remake for 30k when I already have mostly what I want - only the autopilot ...and I love the ESP of the Garmin system.  And the straight and level.  Dynon does not have the ESP.  Anyway it is a much less invasive install I would think.  Anyway when actual options are available....
G3X is not available so its not in the mix.  MAYBE something will be announced at Oshkosh?

I'd rather have Garmin, sure. You can buy a certified Cub with G3X. The only barrier right now is Garmin needs to convince the FAA that I ought to be able to install it in my plane. I don't think I'm interested in a pair of G5. There's a big hole in the market between the $25k 172s the GFC 500 seems targeted for and the $150k airframes the G500/GFC 600 is priced for. Whoever comes up with a compelling product for that market is probably going to sell a lot of hardware.


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[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, johncuyle said:

I'd rather have Garmin, sure. You can buy a certified Cub with G3X. The only barrier right now is Garmin needs to convince the FAA that I ought to be able to install it in my plane. I don't think I'm interested in a pair of G5. There's a big hole in the market between the $25k 172s the GFC 500 seems targeted for and the $150k airframes the G500/GFC 600 is priced for. Whoever comes up with a compelling product for that market is probably going to sell a lot of hardware.


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I hear you.

Not looking at the price - but what it is GFC500+ dual G5 is an amazing piece of avionics way beyond anything available for install today.  (but competitors tomorrow....).

[aviatoreb]

12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I am not sure how many of you have installed a new autopilot from scratch, but looking at the G500 pricing for a 3 servo system in a Piper, my guess with a $1,000 discount, you are still looking at $15 - $16k installed price. And this does not include the optional electric trim. Add in that, it may be in the $18 - $19k range.

Its about 2k cheaper at actual vendors, as for now, so it seems:

http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/gfc500-with-g5-attitude-indicator-and-g5-hsi

but one also needs the GA29 (about $500) to communicate with your gps-nav box.  Then it will do all the GPSS stuff.

I was figuring then 15k-16k?

So with the choices in front of me as of now -

1. As an autopilot only ... GFC500 looks like the best one.  It has straight and level and ESP which are two features which alone seem like they may win the day for me as major safety enhancements.  Esp the second. Comes in at ??16k??  So no more KI256, or mechanical HSI to maintain, but otherwise a very familiar presentation.

2. As a complete system, the Dynon looks best over all - esp if you have a relic panel, then in one shot you get everything.  I think this will cost upper 20s when it is available.  The autopilot loks excellent, but no ESP.  Still best display, best integration, etc.  But as I already have a digital engine monitor, ADSB, etc, then it may not be worth almost 15k more for the integration, and the svt.  In fact, there is something to be said for no integration, since if something fails, then it can be repaired separately.  Some of the nicety of an all of one is cosmetic, (looks cooler) and some is real.

3. Trutrek and (what was the other one?) look super and cheaper still, but less features.  Still super nice.

I have a good working KFC200 (knock on wood), so I will wait and see - but as of now, I like option #1 more (for the ESP) and it is cheaper.  But there is a lot I like about 2 more - it looks cooler, etc.

I wonder if Garmin will come out with a G6?  I.e., a G5 with synthetic vision built in?  That would close the gap between the options  1 and 2 a bit more.

 

There is something to be said for staying out of the Garmin "evil empire" as they are so big sometimes they make things more expensive than they need to be - so I like the idea of voting for Dynon with my dollars.  ... but I wish they had ESP!  I DO like that now it seems to me that the unit can also serve as a backup nav gps for emergency.

Edited February 7, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Marauder]

I will be curious to hear what the final installed price will be for a G500. The basic unit with 3 servos will be around $7k, add in the optional electric trim and installation, my guess will be in the $12k to $13k range.

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

Its about 2k cheaper at actual vendors, as for now, so it seems:

http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/gfc500-with-g5-attitude-indicator-and-g5-hsi

but one also needs the GA29 (about $500) to communicate with your gps-nav box.  Then it will do all the GPSS stuff.

I was figuring then 15k-16k?

So with the choices in front of me as of now -

1. As an autopilot only ... GFC500 looks like the best one.  It has straight and level and ESP which are two features which alone seem like they may win the day for me as major safety enhancements.  Esp the second. Comes in at ??16k??  So no more KI256, or mechanical HSI to maintain, but otherwise a very familiar presentation.

2. As a complete system, the Dynon looks best over all - esp if you have a relic panel, then in one shot you get everything.  I think this will cost upper 20s when it is available.  The autopilot loks excellent, but no ESP.  Still best display, best integration, etc.  But as I already have a digital engine monitor, ADSB, etc, then it may not be worth almost 15k more for the integration, and the svt.  In fact, there is something to be said for no integration, since if something fails, then it can be repaired separately.  Some of the nicety of an all of one is cosmetic, (looks cooler) and some is real.

3. Trutrek and (what was the other one?) look super and cheaper still, but less features.  Still super nice.

I have a good working KFC200 (knock on wood), so I will wait and see - but as of now, I like option #1 more (for the ESP) and it is cheaper.  But there is a lot I like about 2 more - it looks cooler, etc.

I wonder if Garmin will come out with a G6?  I.e., a G5 with synthetic vision built in?  That would close the gap between the options  1 and 2 a bit more.

When I did my original post, I didn't realize this included the G5s. From my experience installing an STEC 60-2 new, there was a fair amount of installation cost. Not sure the digital servos make it easier but I still suspect that there will be costs associated with mounting and running new wires for them. 

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

When I did my original post, I didn't realize this included the G5s. From my experience installing an STEC 60-2 new, there was a fair amount of installation cost. Not sure the digital servos make it easier but I still suspect that there will be costs associated with mounting and running new wires for them. 

Probably right!  At 11k for equipment (plus wires and stuff?) it looks attractive.  But the big unknown - install.  At $2500 to $3000 a pop to overhaul one of the two main gyro instruments for the KFC200 as an ongoing cost, it makes sense to get something new.  Whatever it might be.

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

Probably right!  At 11k for equipment (plus wires and stuff?) it looks attractive.  But the big unknown - install.  At $2500 to $3000 a pop to overhaul one of the two main gyro instruments for the KFC200 as an ongoing cost, it makes sense to get something new.  Whatever it might be.

Garmin does a pretty good job of market pricing to make it appealing but still enough to feel the pain in the wallet. 

[bradp]

Is the GFC 500 going to be sold over the counter like the G5’s or through the dealer network? 

[aviatoreb]

46 minutes ago, bradp said:

Is the GFC 500 going to be sold over the counter like the G5’s or through the dealer network? 

As far as I can tell - over the counter - as in installed at avionics shops of your choice like any other garmin device.  Sarasota I cited is offering it that way.

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

Is the GFC 500 going to be sold over the counter like the G5’s or through the dealer network? 

No, unlike the G5 it will be sold/installed at the shop. For someone as handy as you that is a big disappointment. 

I was considering adding a single G5 and gfc500 to my aspen system but gave up on that idea. By the time you add in the installer premium the system will be twice the price of the TruTrak. 

[Browncbr1]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

Garmin does a pretty good job of market pricing to make it appealing but still enough to feel the pain in the wallet. 

Yea, Garmin must have a team of talented statisticians to develop some pretty complex price elasticity of demand formulas that don't leave a penny on the table.  

[aviatoreb]

11 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

Yea, Garmin must have a team of talented statisticians to develop some pretty complex price elasticity of demand formulas that don't leave a penny on the table.  

That is exactly correct.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

Is the GFC 500 going to be sold over the counter like the G5’s or through the dealer network? 

Dealer network. Look at the Garmin link above. 

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

As far as I can tell - over the counter - as in installed at avionics shops of your choice like any other garmin device.  Sarasota I cited is offering it that way.

I think it will only be sold to avionics shops. I doubt you will be able to shop a good price and then take it to an avionics shop to have it installed. Take a look at the description from Sarasota. Since these are certified boxes, they will want to make sure they follow the STC installation process. Only Garmin dealers have the factory training supposedly to do this.