newbie with questions... of course

[serottak]

so i have been lurking reading threw the old posts for a few weeks and have a few questions. first alittle about me. i am not a pilot yet. my truck will be payed off in a few month and then im starting lessons. my plans for flying are to fly for fun, family vacations, and long weekends. my wife and i regularly have 4 day weekends so long weekends will be the most common. we have two kids, a three year old and a two year old. my wife is a nurse and i am a surgical assistant. now for the questions.

first is can a mooney be piloted by a low time flyer safely? i have read opinions that say yes and no but, you guys seem to be the most knowledgeable on the subject. i have read that a new pilot can get behind the plane do to the speed and complexity. i have a background in sportbike riding and many people say the same thing with regards to bike selection buy a slow and simple bike and then move up. i have seen were many riders have learned so many bad habits on the slow bike the transition to fast/powerful bike is almost impossable. they have gotten so used to being sloppy with the controls and getting away with it that they try and do it on the new bike and crash. i dont know if that transfers to planes but im wondering

would it be a good idea or a posability to buy my mooney and and get my training in it? it seems to me that the more training i have i a specific plane the safer i would be in that plane. i also hate the idea of paying to rent a plane when i plan to buy one in the near future.

next is trip planning; i was thinking about a c172 and posted on one of their forums about flying over the sierras and was told that flying over was not a good idea and that most fly around. for me that would be terrible i live near san francisco and my folks live in fallon nv. so a staight line over the sierras is about 110 miles. flying around is a long ass ways. is over the sierra's an real option in a mooney?

so now that we are on mountains lets talk about turbo normalizers. i understand what they do and the need for o2. working in surgery the use of o2 is not a big deal to me. but how much does the turbo effect operation costs? what do they do to the life of the engine. how much maintance is needed on the turbo system itself?

sorry for the long winded post and thanks in advance for all of the replies.

[HopePilot]

I know people are going to say that you can learn to fly in a Mooney, but I'm not sure I could have.  I got my license in a Cessna 172, then towards the end of my license I, also, started flying a Mooney M20C (because I knew I wanted to fly a 201 eventually), and then bought a 201 only after I had my instrument rating.  This approach required a lot of delayed gratification, but it proved a very sound and methodical approach.  If I could do anything differently, I might substitute a low wing Piper (non-complex model, with a closer feel to the Mooney than a Cessna), etc., for the 172 (although G1000 time helped me get insured on the 201 as I had little complex time).  I would have hated to have made all those early mistakes on a plane I owned, but that's just me.

[DaV8or]

1) You can train in a Mooney, but I wouldn't recommend it. Your training will take much longer and your insurance will be steep. Your insurance company will require that you only get instruction from a CFI with lots of Mooney time in your type. They are harder to find. However, there are some in the Bay Area. I would recommend you get your Private in a Piper Cherokee or one of it's many variants. The transition to Mooney will be simpler.

2) The Cessna guys are right. Flying direct over the Sierras is risky. How much risk you want to take is up to you. An engine out pretty much means you and your family dies. People that go direct a lot, usually do it in a twin or something turbine. A turbo with O2 will really help because it will buy you more options should the prop stop and it will get you out of the mountain waves that occur when the wind is up. Flying in, around and over mountains is nothing to be taken lightly. I personally go around. I'm a pretty conservative flyer.

3) A turbo Mooney will cost you more to own and operate. There is no way around it. It is more complicated and require more attention. How much those costs are, I can't say because I have no direct experience, but lots here do and I'm sure they will chime in.

Welcome to MooneySpace and flying in general. You will find it very challenging, fun and addicting. Oh yeah, pricey too. Particularly when you own. Be very careful with the weekend getaways. Patience and flexibility are the key. No piston plane can compete with the safety of the airlines, or even your car. "Gotta get there itis" has killed many a family. Much like sailing, Mother Nature and the weather is the big challenge. They can swat you out of the sky with ease. Not trying to discourage you, just would rather to see new pilots know the truth rather than the myth.

[Kwixdraw]

I doubt an insurance company is going to make it very viable for you to learn in a Mooney. I learned in a Cherokee and was behind the power curve for a while in an Arrow before buying my 201. With the flights you are talking about, zipping over the Sierras, you are certainly talking turbo time and financing that learning curve can get seriously expensive as well as being unsafe for you and your family if you get yourself in a bad position. They didn't call the v tail Bonanza the fork tailed doctor killer for no good reason. Too much performance at an affordable price for too little pilot knowledge and experience. Please don't take that as an insult to your ability but it takes time and experience to know how to judge the safety of a flight operation when you get away from the home airport. In Calif. we don't see a lot of the weather they see east of the Rockies and yet there are conditions out there that will kill you quick. Remember how long it took them to find ol' what's his name when he got caught in the rotor wave near Mammoth Lakes?   Do yourself a favor and take a few demo flights then decide if you like a high wing or low wing aircraft. Join AOPA and read everything they have about buying and owning an aircraft. Talk to owners at your local airport and see what people like and dislike about their airplanes and see what fits you. Grab a set of ground school videos and get some of the book work out of the way and then you will have a better idea of what you need to consider to fly safely. Work out a few flight plans and see just how little difference 10-15 knots makes in trip time on the direct route and how much time and money that speed or lack of it really makes. Mooneys are great aircraft but you can stuff your head in the ground if you get out of shape down low.

[flight2000]

Well, I guess I'll be the one to disagree and say that you should get your PPL in your Mooney (or other aircraft) if your going to be buying the aircraft anyway.  That's the best way to learn and the speeds just aren't that far off. If you do it in your aircraft, you won't be fighting over resources with the others and you control the maintenance.  I've personnaly known 2 individuals that went that route and neither of them regret that decision (both got their license in under 60 hours, which is about the norm).  Find a good instructor that knows Mooney's and you'll be fine.  Look for one that has lot's of gray hair as well since they aren't in it to built time for the most part... Owning the aircraft makes you a little more keen to pay attention since it's your aircraft.  Part of why the rental fleet gets abused is because folks don't care enough to treat it right when they are learning.  If it breaks, the FBO fixes it and they never see the bill.  That is what drives me nuts about renting and what forced me to buy my own plane.

 The insurance shouldn't "kill" your budget the first year.  Will it be high, yes, but will also come down substantially the second year.  Call around to various insurance companies and get their opinion on insurability.  Many won't touch you, but that's their loss. 

If your heading straight for a Turbo, then I would consider waiting and get your experience in a NA aircraft first.  That's the only thing I'd stay away from as a new pilot.

[serottak]

sorry for my ignorance but i have a question regarding flying around vs over. does that mean flying into tahoe is out also? living in the bay area the mountains and ocean seem to be very limiting in where i could fly.

i'm not trying to be argumentitive but i just want to be find out if flying is right for my family. As for the weather and such ending a weekend trip that is something i am prepared for and fully expect. one of the reasons im interested in private flying is that when the weather says dont go there, we might be able to go somewhere else instead.

[serottak]

i understand that there is a learning curve and going beyond my abilities equals death to me and and anyone with me. my plan is to go straight into ifr training and eventualy mountain training. flying over the sierra's was not in my near plans but where i hoped to get to. from what i have read having a turbo makes flying in the mountains safer because of the power and the increased ability to reach alt.

i can and am willing to train in a lesser plane. but the argument for the v tailed doctor killer was too much power for knowledge and experience, wouldn't training hours with the cfi help me gain the knowledge and experience? i expect it would take longer and cost more to learn in a mooney but  the end result would be me being a more knowledgeable and experinced mooney pilot. if there is a flaw in my way of thinking let me know, but it seems backwards to me to be a trained comanche pilot and try and convert the knowledge and skills then to just learn them in the plane i want to fly.

Again i'm not trying to be an ass i am just trying to understand.

[Kwixdraw]

Perfect answer. Go somewhere else or pick something else to do. Much of why I said to get some of your ground school going and a few demo flights in is because you will get a lot of these questions answered for you. Example. Flying to Tahoe you have high altitudes and some times it can get hot there, even though we think of it mostly as a winter destination. In ground school you will learn about "density altitude". Performance of aircraft goes down when they are in high, hot, heavy and humid conditions. This is where that turbo helps, by the way. You won't have much performance if you are loaded to max gross weight at 7-8000 feet and it's 80 degrees out. Your aircraft will be performing based on something like an 11000 ft density altitude and you Will notice it.  We have people crash all the time in the local mountains because they don't plan for the density altitude they are dealing with at 7700 msl.

Thinking about your original post. Maybe you could find someone to take you up in a C-182. That might be a very good aircraft to own and learn in and it would be useful to you for a long time until you get your instrument rating and some flight time built up.

[DaV8or]

Quote: serottak

sorry for my ignorance but i have a question regarding flying around vs over. does that mean flying into tahoe is out also? living in the bay area the mountains and ocean seem to be very limiting in where i could fly.

[serottak]

Quote: Kwixdraw

Perfect answer. Go somewhere else or pick something else to do. Much of why I said to get some of your ground school going and a few demo flights in is because you will get a lot of these questions answered for you. Example. Flying to Tahoe you have high altitudes and some times it can get hot there, even though we think of it mostly as a winter destination. In ground school you will learn about "density altitude". Performance of aircraft goes down when they are in high, hot, heavy and humid conditions. This is where that turbo helps, by the way. You won't have much performance if you are loaded to max gross weight at 7-8000 feet and it's 80 degrees out. Your aircraft will be performing based on something like an 11000 ft density altitude and you Will notice it.  We have people crash all the time in the local mountains because they don't plan for the density altitude they are dealing with at 7700 msl.

Thinking about your original post. Maybe you could find someone to take you up in a C-182. That might be a very good aircraft to own and learn in and it would be useful to you for a long time until you get your instrument rating and some flight time built up.

[Kwixdraw]

Not too much power( re the v-tail) it's the behavior of the aircraft in flight. The V-tail is very light on the controls and with the distractions of single pilot instrument flight in turbulent conditions it can get away from you then exceed redline speed. The V-tail will tend to pull itself out of an overspeed dive faster than the structure will tolerate and when a pilot has lost control his natural instinct is to pull back the yoke and break the airplane quicker. Not that it's too much airplane to handle, it's just that when things start going wrong they will get bad enough to kill you before you get a chance to correct the problem. Same kind of a deal if you don't keep your wits about you in a Mooney. If you get a Mooney into a spin it will loose 1000 ft or more per turn. The Mooney test pilot that signed the airworthiness cert for my plane was killed in an accident where they botched an approach to landing and got it into an uncoordinated configuration at low altitude and spun in. Mr. Smith was not flying but he had something like 20k hours and the actual pilot was high in Mooney time, still neither of them saw the problem in time to keep from crashing. It's kind of like the old saying about the piper Cub being such a safe airplane that it can only barely kill you. All airplanes will do you in if you get your thinking out of order, some just give you more of a chance to fix the mistake before they bite you.  They still stick potential fighter jocks into simple trainers to teach the basics. There is a reason.

[serottak]

Quote: DaV8or

No, no, no. You can go to Tahoe. Just be careful. Here's what you're up against- Winter time you have icing. Fly into a cloud or rain and you get airframe icing. Causes airplanes fall from the sky. Summer time you have density altitude. Suddenly 7,000 ft becomes 10,000 ft and airplanes don't want to climb. A turbo really helps here. Anytime- Mountain waves. Strong winds blow over the Sierras and create strong up and down drafts, stronger than your Mooney can climb, even a turbo. Tahoe being in a valley, this is an issue. You can go to Tahoe, you just need to be prepared to wait it out if necessary. Just the way it goes in GA.

[DaV8or]

Quote: serottak

 while i have not started ground school i have checked out and read all of the books in the solano county library system. and after reading about density altitude that is what steered me to a turbo normalized plane. the reason i asked about tahoe is if it is not safe to fly over the mountain then flying to the top and back would not be a good idea either correct.

[Immelman]

I suggest starting your training in a conventional trainer (i.e. cessna 152, citabria, or something similar). Get to the point of solo (the first big milestone) before stepping up to the Mooney.

Here's why: trainers are built for abuse. It will take a while for your landings to become consistent and safe, and then kind and gentle to the airplane. The Mooney is a great airplane, and you can certainly finish your PPL in it -- but it offers little for shock absorbtion for a balked landing.

Also I operate an M20E and take it to altitude quite often. The eastern side of the sierra is some of my favorite country. Have taken many trips to and fro, going to places like Lee Vining, Mammoth, Bishop, etc. All of those destinations and Tahoe are a pretty reasonable (and very quick) mission in a Mooney, but lots of caution is advised in mountain flying in general.

Finally before any airplane purchase, its best to define your typical mission. It sounds like you've already started doing that... but try to think down the road at the places you'd like to go, and how many people (and how much gear) you'll need to haul. Those factors will narrow the scope of acceptable airplanes considerably.

[DaV8or]

Quote: serottak

 i am missing something here. if i am willing to wait for cooperative weather i can fly to tahoe but i can't safely fly over it to the nevada side?

[Kwixdraw]

Deleted my reply so here goes again. The C-182 is a great family airplane. Big inside and able to carry a good load at reasonable speed. Lots of people think that a door on both sides is safer and easier to live with. Fixed gear equals less expense at annual and in insurance. It's a popular airplane and though you may have to pay a healthy price to purchase it should come back to you if you decide to move to something else. (Your turboed Mooney) 

As far as going to Tahoe vs over the Sierras. The route to Tahoe has been pointed out and it is lower. To really clear the Sierras at their highest points you need to be up around 17000-18000 ft. Lots of non turboed light aircraft don't have a service ceiling that high. You want as many 1000s of clearance over those mountains as you can get to stay out of turbulence.

[jax88]

Insurance will be higher for the turbo Mooney than the non-turbo Mooney.  In fact I just spoke with my insurance company on Friday to get their quote for renewing my M20F versus insuring me on a 252 and a Bravo.  The difference was $800 per year.  Price breaks occur at 100 hours in make and model and/or instrument rating.  That $800 equates to roughly half again as much for me to insure the turbo models.  I have right at 200 total hours and 85 in my M20F, no instrument rating.

I had the good fortune of doing most of my PPL flight training with a company owned by a former Mooney test pilot.  We trained in the typical high wing, brand "C" aircraft, not Mooney aircraft.  There is a reason for this that has been mentioned . . . a diligent instructor is going to do their best to NOT let you get the two of you in trouble, they probably like living as much as you do, BUT, a responsible Mooney owner knows these aircraft aren't made for the rigors of bouncing an aircraft off the runway while learning to land.  The maintenance bills will get very high if you start forcing a Mooney down, and trust me, that will be your first reaction when you come across the numbers too fast and start looking at all the pavement you're giving away.

That being said, I would recommend doing your training in your own aircraft if you are definately going to purchase an aircraft.  However, as already mentioned, do your homework, make sure you get the right aircraft for your predominant flight profile.  A mistake in an aircraft purchase can be very expensive.  If you purchase a Mooney and intend to do your flight training in it, you will likely HAVE to find a Mooney experienced CFII to do your training with, your insurance company will likely dictate that any un-named pilot have a lot of time in make and model.  Your aircraft will prefer to have a mid to high time Mooney pilot at the controls in those first 40 or so hours.

Mooneys like to fly, they don't like to land.  They float, and float, and float if you try to land with too much speed.  If you drop a Mooney on the runway too hard and/or too often, you'll get a bill for $8000 for resealing the tanks.  And if you continue dropping a Mooney on the runway, you'll continue to get a bill for tank repairs.  If you have poor technique when you start dropping your Mooney on the runway and bouncing, you'll wind up with a much more expensive bill for replacing the prop and tearing down the engine for inspection.

Listen to people when they warn you about mountain flying.  Don't be afraid of it, be aware of it.  I have yet to fly over anything above 8,000 feet and even at these "lower" altitudes (Arizona & New Mexico) I've seen vertical speeds in excess of 1000 feet per minute both up and down.  I know it can happen, so I give myself as much clearance as reasonable and stay alert.  AND, be sure to account for temperature and altitude when planning your climbs.  The difference both make on your climb rate may surprise you.

[N601RX]

My brother and I both got our licesne in a cessnal 150 that we owned.   After getting our license we sold it and got our money back, actually all of it.  We then brought a Mooney as low time private pilots.  The insurance company made us both get 15 more hrs of dual time with a CFI who had at least 30 hrs of Mooney time.  The also made us fly 10 additional hours Solo before taking passengers up.  The insurance company only said we have to have 15hrs of dual, so most of those 15 hrs can be geared toward IFR time.

The Mooney is going to have a higher operating cost (fuel, annual, insurance) that a small cessna or cherokee, so one thought would be find a good deal on a Cessna or Cherokee that is in good condition and is not going to need any work in the next couple of years.  Buy it, get your license and sell it. It beats renting and may make more financial sense also.

 

[Cruiser]

Find the instructor you want to take lessons from, take an introductory flight with this instructor. Next, ask the instructor to find a Mooney that both of you can fly in. After these flights the instructor will have an idea of your ability to learn to fly. Sit down with the instructor and have a serious discussion about the pros vs. cons of training in your Mooney.

It is most certainly possible to do, and you would not be the first to take this route for training. It just takes time, some can manage the characteristics of hi-performance airplanes without much trouble, others need to adjust. As for the planes they call trainers............. that's why they call them trainers.

[MARZ]

Quote: N601RX

My brother and I both got our licesne in a cessnal 150 that we owned.   After getting our license we sold it and got our money back, actually all of it.  We then brought a Mooney as low time private pilots.  The insurance company made us both get 15 more hrs of dual time with a CFI who had at least 30 hrs of Mooney time.  The also made us fly 10 additional hours Solo before taking passengers up.  The insurance company only said we have to have 15hrs of dual, so most of those 15 hrs can be geared toward IFR time.

The Mooney is going to have a higher operating cost (fuel, annual, insurance) that a small cessna or cherokee, so one thought would be find a good deal on a Cessna or Cherokee that is in good condition and is not going to need any work in the next couple of years.  Buy it, get your license and sell it. It beats renting and may make more financial sense also.

 

[Hank]

Quote: N601RX

My brother and I both got our licesne in a cessnal 150 that we owned.   After getting our license we sold it and got our money back, actually all of it.  We then brought a Mooney as low time private pilots.  The insurance company made us both get 15 more hrs of dual time with a CFI who had at least 30 hrs of Mooney time.  The also made us fly 10 additional hours Solo before taking passengers up.  The insurance company only said we have to have 15hrs of dual, so most of those 15 hrs can be geared toward IFR time.

The Mooney is going to have a higher operating cost (fuel, annual, insurance) that a small cessna or cherokee, so one thought would be find a good deal on a Cessna or Cherokee that is in good condition and is not going to need any work in the next couple of years.  Buy it, get your license and sell it. It beats renting and may make more financial sense also.

 

[FlyDave]

Quote: serottak

i can and am willing to train in a lesser plane. but the argument for the v tailed doctor killer was too much power for knowledge and experience, wouldn't training hours with the cfi help me gain the knowledge and experience? i expect it would take longer and cost more to learn in a mooney but  the end result would be me being a more knowledgeable and experinced mooney pilot. if there is a flaw in my way of thinking let me know, but it seems backwards to me to be a trained comanche pilot and try and convert the knowledge and skills then to just learn them in the plane i want to fly.

[Shadrach]

I was checked out and soloed in an M20F on my 200th hour. I promptly flew it from MD to Martha's vineyard the same day. Insurance was $1500 anually (2003) with 55K hull 1MM smooth.   Was it a lot of bird for me at the time? Sure, it was all bird I thought I'd ever need (I still feel that way 95% of the time).

As for the expense, it depends on how you own.  Time permitting, I have an IA help me do my annuals in my own hangar. I did the same thing with regards to hanging our IRAN'd engine this winter (the cold slowed things down a bit).

Dry 172s rent for 105 an hr. on my field and I have no control over the mx.  From a travel standpoint, cost per mile, my Mooney is probably less then renting a 172. However, it is a family partnership so it has it's ups and downs. 

I would suggest you learn in a trainer and master it before moving into a Mooney... It's better to be hamfisted with a rental. by the time you have 150hrs you'll be more than ready to consider complex machines.

[Barry]

Weighing in on this discussion, I would suggest that you learn to fly in a Piper/Cessna rather than a Mooney you own. Reason, there is less to break when you make a mistake ... and you WILL make mistakes. Flying a plane is not like riding a bike. In a Mooney you have retract gear. This gear is less robust than a Cessna gear if you don't get your crosswind landings right. The Mooney gear may collapse while the Cessna gear shrugs it off. Hard landings ... the Mooney uses a "wet wing". Hard landings will make it leak and the repairs are expensive.

Speed or complexity, I agree in that they are not a real issue while learning ... but, do you want to spend $50K on an airplane, beat it up during the learning process and then keep it ?? Renting has some real advantages. I would hold off on buying your plane until you have a few hours under your belt and see if you're a "natural" or not. While flying is not a terribly difficult discipline to learn it does take some time.

[scottfromiowa]

Learn in a fixed gear Cherokee variant.  This will confirm you like low wing aircraft and eliminate risk of gear-up while "learning to fly".  There is a Lot to learn without also learning about constant speed props and retractable gear.  The transition from a Cherokee to a Mooney will be relatively easy.  If you don't like a Cherokee (low wing/how they land) you won't like a Mooney....then try Brand C.  Have fun.  Learn.  Get your PPL...then start dreaming about mountains...then dream about mountains with family after you have experience...good and bad with weather and all it involves with decision making.  All pilots have learned by challenging themselves...experience is earned in an airplane.  Start flying you will learn and understand and your knowledge and decision-making will grow.