Traffic Alerting Experience?

[FullyArticulate]

Hello!

I've been using a Zaon XRX in my Mooney for about 3 weeks now (it sits on the dash of my 252, just to the right of the center "bump"). I've got it perfectly leveled, have calibrated it, and all the rest.

I'm pretty disappointed. In two cases, airplanes passed within a mile at the same altitude and the box didn't show a thing--one was on an instrument flight plan in controlled airspace, so I know his transponder was on. The IFR airplane was a good test case--it took off from an airport beneath me, climbed past me, turned in front, and flew on. I could understand if he was out of antenna "view" beneath me, but straight in front of me? At or above my altitude?

In cases where it does find traffic, it generally is clueless as to the direction and distance. Opposite direction traffic directly in front of me was called behind and to my right. Eventually, it got the direction right, but thought the distance was <.5 mile, which is definitely not right.

Does anyone have experience with active traffic systems? Avidyne TAS-600? Garmin GTS-800? Please share your experiences on accuracy, false negatives, and false positives.

The Zaon is doing more harm than good-it gives me a false sense of security when it's not showing anything, and causes unnecessary anxiety when it insists (incorrectly) a target is right on top of me.

Thanks!

[jelswick]

Scary stuff I'd say.  My Mode C is going intermittent at this point and have 45T scheduled to go in for annual the first week of March.  I'm going to have to replace the transponder and am thinking either the Garmin GTX 327 or the 330.  The 327 is less expensive by quite a bit, but would love the traffic and the interface to the Aspen unit.  I'm not having luck finding the TIS shut-down dates on the web other than from a few years ago.  Does anyone know whether the TIS sites are going to be up long enough to make the GTX-330 worth the extra cost?

[N513ZM]

Quote: FullyArticulate

Does anyone have experience with active traffic systems? Avidyne TAS-600? Garmin GTS-800? Please share your experiences on accuracy, false negatives, and false positives.

 

[Piloto]

Quote: FullyArticulate

Hello!

I've been using a Zaon XRX in my Mooney for about 3 weeks now (it sits on the dash of my 252, just to the right of the center "bump"). I've got it perfectly leveled, have calibrated it, and all the rest.

I'm pretty disappointed. In two cases, airplanes passed within a mile at the same altitude and the box didn't show a thing--one was on an instrument flight plan in controlled airspace, so I know his transponder was on. The IFR airplane was a good test case--it took off from an airport beneath me, climbed past me, turned in front, and flew on. I could understand if he was out of antenna "view" beneath me, but straight in front of me? At or above my altitude?

In cases where it does find traffic, it generally is clueless as to the direction and distance. Opposite direction traffic directly in front of me was called behind and to my right. Eventually, it got the direction right, but thought the distance was <.5 mile, which is definitely not right.

Does anyone have experience with active traffic systems? Avidyne TAS-600? Garmin GTS-800? Please share your experiences on accuracy, false negatives, and false positives.

The Zaon is doing more harm than good-it gives me a false sense of security when it's not showing anything, and causes unnecessary anxiety when it insists (incorrectly) a target is right on top of me.

Thanks!

[FullyArticulate]

Quote: N513ZM

I have had TAS-610 in my Ovation for 5 years. I shudder when I think of flying without it. Accurate, and you would be horrified at how much traffic is out there that you don't see or that doesn't get called.

[Piloto]

Quote: FullyArticulate

I like the 601P pictures--I owned a 602P for about 10 years and loved it. 40gph cruise + $5/gallon gas = very very expensive, though. I'm glad to be back in a Mooney.

 

[eldeano]

Good to know, I was looking at the Zaon.  Thanks for the info!

[FullyArticulate]

Just a follow-up.. I gave it another week, tried a different position, and messed with the settings a bit. Still not a good experience. In the most obviously bad case, a life-flight helicopter passed within a mile with nary a notice. Working the pattern with another airplane was just a great example of how confused it was--several times it thought the other guy was flying circles around me.

Oh well, I had high hopes. It's in a box back to Sportys today. I've not gotten a quote for the GTS-800 yet, but I'm leaning in that direction. My annual is the end of this month, so I'll likely have it (or the Avidyne) installed then.

[Jeff_S]

The passive systems are prone to inconsistency, no doubt. I have a Zaon MRX which I thought did a great job in my Warrior, but on the glare shield of my J I have noticed that it doesn't pick up as much. I had forgotten that there is an external antenna you can use for this device, so I may order that to see if it improves things.

But just the other night I was doing some night practice, and on final approach into my field (PDK, towered) the tower was tracking me and one other aircraft that was about 1 mile behind and 600 feet below me. Danged if my little MRX didn't read exactly the same thing. So they do work. Much depends on the strength of the transponder ping from the radar system as well as the response from all the other planes' xpdrs.

[FullyArticulate]

The MRX doesn't have direction, right? Maybe that's the part that causes the XRX to get confused.

I'm surprised you have a fondness for your MRX. The amount of variability in the announced traffic on the XRX (even ignoring the direction), and the outright miss of traffic (even with a clear line-of-sight to it) is terrible. "It's 3 miles away. No, .5! No, not in range at all. No, .1 miles!"

It's missed airliners (MD80?), a Cirrus, a helicopter, a BE1900, and a Cessna, all passing within a mile or less. I'm not talking about getting the distance or direction wrong, just plain misses 'em. You'd think some of those aircraft would have strong transponders.

Maybe I got a dud, given your comments about your MRX.

[Jeff_S]

Well, I got my external antenna over the weekend so we'll see if things are better. And do I think the MRX is flawless? No, of course not, but it hasn't been too bad, either.  As to airliners, you may think it's missed them, but just because you can see it doesn't mean it's going to show on the device. Remember, it will only pick things up if it things there's a potential problem. I fly under A LOT of airliners in and around Hartsfield and it doesn't pick them up a lot, but they're also way more than 5 miles away.

Does the MRX give direction? Not laterally, but it does give vertical direction and trend, and distance, so it's not hard to figure if something is getting closer or farther away. Still, I've found it to be a useful addition to at least keep me thinking about looking for traffic.  Perhaps your unit is just a dud, or there's something about the RF environment in your cockpit which is unusuall challenging.

One fellow wrote a comment about liking the Monroy better, but as I recall he also had it tied to an external blade antenna. You can do this with an MRX as well which will surely give you better results.

[flyboy0681]

I was about to get a Zaon as well but now not sure. Can somebody else weigh in on the Monroy with and without the external antenna please?

[Jeff_S]

Preliminary report is that the external antenna for my MRX did help out. I wouldn't know, since I spent two hours under the hood on Sunday getting caught up on approaches with my CFI, but I did point out to her a few times when I saw something on the MRX and she invariably said "yep, I got it in sight."  Next time I fly when I can actually look around a little bit I'll provide more details.

[Piloto]

Quote: flyboy0681

I was about to get a Zaon as well but now not sure. Can somebody else weigh in on the Monroy with and without the external antenna please?

[takair]

Quote: Piloto

 I had the Monroy at first with the portable antenna on the glareshield and it works OK but missed traffic behind farther than about 2nm and no traffic direction. I installed on the belly about 6 months ago their directional antenna ANT-300 and it works flawlessly with accurate traffic direction, distance and altitude. For this devices to work properly you need to have an external antenna, otherwise it is going to miss traffic that maybe a threat to you. 

José

[highflyer2]

I had an early dash mount traffic system (Monroy) with top and bottom outside antennas and found it to be useless. Put it away!

Then went to G330 with mode S.  A real improvement with only a few false positives (seeing my self) and no know false negatives except for when mode s was not available.  Keep me put of harms way at least twice, but then I had a close call when mode S dropped out in the traffic pattern at a non tower airport.

So I just got a full ADSB- in and out with the GTX330 and GTS 800 showing on my 530.

Works really well so far - only about 10 hrs in the air to date. No false reports at all.

[highflyer2]

See above 

[Piloto]

Quote: highflyer2

I had an early dash mount traffic system (Monroy) with top and bottom outside antennas and found it to be useless. Put it away! 

How did you connected two antennas, the unit has only provison for one antenna?

[highflyer2]

My shop used a spliter/joiner for the two leads and connect the output to the unit.  The previous owner had a panel mount traffic unit installed along with the two antennas.  That was some years ago.

It missed planes in front of me, below me, and above me.  After visual verification, i removed it.

[Piloto]

Quote: highflyer2

My shop used a spliter/joiner for the two leads and connect the output to the unit.  The previous owner had a panel mount traffic unit installed along with the two antennas.  That was some years ago.

It missed planes in front of me, below me, and above me.  After visual verification, i removed it.

[highflyer2]

Interesting idea.  Wonder why my avionics shop did not see this problem?

I will see if I can find the old unit to verify if my memory is correct.

It also worked poorly with its own antenna as a glarshield mount.  That is why I tried the outside antennas...

[FullyArticulate]

Sporty's graciously accepted my return of the Zaon for a full refund. I then had a TAS-620 (actually, I bought a 605, but they gave me a 620 for "free" because Avidyne was sold out) installed by Pacific Coast Avionics last week. Some observations after three flights with it so far (one long-distance, two short)...

PCA had to play a fair amount of "musical antennae" to get my various COM and GPS antennas far enough away from the top traffic antenna. In two cases, they ended up building an aluminum tripler to reinforce the thin skin on the roof of my 252. I wish the triplers were invisible, but they are somewhat noticeable.

The quantity of traffic discovered is absolutely shocking. Looking out the window and the PCAS didn't even remotely prepare me for the amount of traffic in and around Portland. Arrival at Hillsboro airport on Friday had 8 aircraft in and entering/leaving the pattern. I read a similar comment from someone else on this thread about how they were surprised how much traffic their Avidyne displayed, and I can't do enough to emphasize that. Wow.

Yesterday, I flew straight up the Columbia river, something I would have been nervous to do on a beautiful day given the high volume of traffic over such a relatively narrow canyon. The Avidyne spotted traffic I never did see, or when I did was exactly where it pegged it.

The only complaint I have so far is there's a fairly significant shadow straight in front of the aircraft. While leaving Portland, an aircraft was in the opposite direction, absolutely head-on. I got a traffic alert from the tower at the same time the Avidyne announced "Traffic Alert, 1 mile, unknown bearing". My first reaction was to look down at the Avidyne to see where the aircraft was displayed. It was confused and showed it 2600' below me at my 7 o'clock (and jumping around). It was dead on about the distance though. (Why an aircraft was level at 3500' westbound is beyond me). It's possible I had the settings incorrect. The GNS-530 has a confusing traffic page. You set the indicator in the upper-left to "normal", then hit menu and find it's in approach mode. I have no idea which mode it's actually in when that happens.

Later in the day, an aircraft pretty much straight ahead of me (but about 7 miles) was missed until I closed to within 6 miles. No big deal, and I can live with that.

The TAS gives me exactly what I had been looking for--an extra set of eyes, no false positives, and very few false negatives. If ADS-B were available closer to the ground (<1500'), and a certified UAT wasn't exorbitently expensive, I might have gone that way to get weather as well. Otherwise, I'd install a TAS again in a second.

Beware on the Mooney for the need for doublers/triplers. The skin on the roof is very thin. Also, beware of potential shadowing issues when picking antenna installation spots. I'll post an update as I get more experience.

[flyboy0681]

I've been extremely satisfied with my recent Monroy ATD-300 installation. I had the unit panel mounted along with an antenna at the bottom of the plane (forward of the leading edge) and I can't say enough about its accuracy. When receiving Flight Following the system is identifying every target ahead of the controller. The newer units (mine included) also have a ARINC 429 interface which will be hooked up to my GTN750 by summers end.

I have experienced false negatives but I can't say with certainty that they are just that. Just because I didn't see the traffic doesn't mean that it wasn't out there.

In summary, I think the Monroy system is a great unit and reasonably priced. But those that are thinking about purchasing it really need to go all out and have the antenna installed. Using the unit on the top of the glare shield with the rubber antenna will not get you the accuracy that you need or require.

 

 

[N513ZM]

Quote: FullyArticulate

What are you using for a display? Why the 610 instead of the 600? It appears the 610 has 12nm range and

...

Fortunately, Sporty's has a year-long guarantee, so I can return the XRX. I'd looked at the Monroy as well--the ability to mount an external antenna is compelling, but Aviation Consumer just did a review and swore the XRX was better.

I like the 601P pictures--I owned a 602P for about 10 years and loved it. 40gph cruise + $5/gallon gas = very very expensive, though. I'm glad to be back in a Mooney.

 

[flyboy0681]