Ceiling level of a 77' 201

[gsxrpilot]

The M20K 231 is certified to FL240. That was increased to FL280 for the M20K 252.  I read somewhere that the Mooney pilot doing the certification tests talked about the huge difference between 24,000 and 28,000. And didn't recommend anyone fly at 28,000 for any length of time. The airplane runs fine up there, but the consciousness of the pilot is very tenuous and any problem with O2 can have catastrophic consequences.  I think they had to go to FL280 to get the 252 mph TAS they were chasing.

[M016576]

4 hours ago, peevee said:

Only certified to 240 as from the factory. Dunno why other than it was too expensive to change as part of the stc. It'll climb about 1kfpm to 240 if it's not super hot out maybe a bit less like 600 to 800 if it is.

Is that a listed restriction in the POH?  Or just what they flew it up to in test?  I wasn't aware of any altitude restrictions on mooneys, but I've only had J's

maybe it's a physiological consideration from the company?  Just speculation on my part.

 

[peevee]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

Is that a listed restriction in the POH?  Or just what they flew it up to in test?  I wasn't aware of any altitude restrictions on mooneys, but I've only had J's

maybe it's a physiological consideration from the company?  Just speculation on my part.

 

 

[kortopates]

Is that a listed restriction in the POH?  Or just what they flew it up to in test?  I wasn't aware of any altitude restrictions on mooneys, but I've only had J's
maybe it's a physiological consideration from the company?  Just speculation on my part.
 

All turbos have a certified service ceiling - at least any capable of flying in the flight levels. Indeed Paul is right, Mooney went too FL280 in order to claim 252 mph cruise. There was a 252 pilot over 15 years ago that flew everywhere and routinely at FL280 for the speed. IIRC, He sold it when the engine needed overhaul. I hope most of us flying the flight levels have emergency backup O2 within arms reach - mine is in the seat back pocket. O2 problems are rare but I've had hoses pop off the connectors and issues with the Scott connector not seated properly - but nothing that wasn't at least temporarily fixable that either needed the backup or require a descent. But I'll assume a few others have by the occasional death by hypoxia.


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[gsxrpilot]

17 minutes ago, kortopates said:

All turbos have a certified service ceiling - at least any capable of flying in the flight levels. Indeed Paul is right, Mooney went too FL280 in order to claim 252 mph cruise. There was a 252 pilot over 15 years ago that flew everywhere and routinely at FL280 for the speed. IIRC, He sold it when the engine needed overhaul. I hope most of us flying the flight levels have emergency backup O2 within arms reach - mine is in the seat back pocket. O2 problems are rare but I've had hoses pop off the connectors and issues with the Scott connector not seated properly - but nothing that wasn't at least temporarily fixable that either needed the backup or require a descent. But I'll assume a few others have by the occasional death by hypoxia.

I keep a can of emergency O2 in my lap and the altitude preselect set for about 15K.  

[peevee]

7 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I keep a can of emergency O2 in my lap and the altitude preselect set for about 15K.  

If you're over the rocks in Co set it for 16,4 that's the highest mva around here.

[gsengle]

I keep a can of emergency O2 in my lap and the altitude preselect set for about 15K.  

Just makes me to nervous to go over 20k single pilot. Too dangerous for me, one kink in the line and you don't notice and...

But makes me wonder why we don't have better o2 systems than we do. More military grade...


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[peevee]

Just now, gsengle said:

 

Just makes me to nervous to go over 20k single pilot. Too dangerous for me, one kink in the line and you don't notice and...

But makes me wonder why we don't have better o2 systems than we do. More military grade...


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Something like a O2d2 will alert you if the gas stops flowing. It's not much but it helps 

[gsengle]

Something like a O2d2 will alert you if the gas stops flowing. It's not much but it helps 

I guess the new systems that will auto descend you if you fail to respond to the avionics is the best deal. A G1000 knows the safe altitudes and knows how to squawk 7700...


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[peevee]

Just now, gsengle said:

 

I guess the new systems that will auto descend you if you fail to respond to the avionics is the best deal. A G1000 knows the safe altitudes and knows how to squawk 7700...


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That'd be cool. Sucks it has to be a Garmin system.

[gsengle]

That'd be cool. Sucks it has to be a Garmin system.

I wonder if the new version in the Mooneys has it. It would make me be willing to go high.

https://www.aeroplusaviation.com/emergency-descent-mode-edm-garmin-perspective


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[gsxrpilot]

13 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Just makes me to nervous to go over 20k single pilot. Too dangerous for me, one kink in the line and you don't notice and...

 

I was at 21K and having all kinds of issues with my O2. It was not a problem at all. The fitting between the mask hose and the hose to the O2 kept coming apart. I was sitting there at 21K with electrical tape, a leatherman tool, trying to fix the hose, and not breathing much oxygen. Eventually I gave up and asked for lower. But I struggled with it for over 30 minutes and only had O2 off and on.  

As I understand it even 24K is not dangerous, but 28K can be. 

[gsengle]

I was at 21K and having all kinds of issues with my O2. It was not a problem at all. The fitting between the mask hose and the hose to the O2 kept coming apart. I was sitting there at 21K with electrical tape, a leatherman tool, trying to fix the hose, and not breathing much oxygen. Eventually I gave up and asked for lower. But I struggled with it for over 30 minutes and only had O2 off and on.  
As I understand it even 24K is not dangerous, but 28K can be. 

I'm guessing part of the issue is more when it sneaks up on ya...

What altitude was the gentleman at who died on the way to the Atlantic City MAPA PPP training?


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[carusoam]

You guys are really thinking!

Automation for our birds is really getting usable.

One of the oddities of running out of O2...

You may get five minutes, but your cognitive skills are slowing down the whole time.

One of the first things to go is sense of time.  Another thing would be ability to recognize an alarm properly...

 

Don't wait four minutes to get your plan B going...

 

Being young and in good health is helpful.  For as long as you can maintain being young and good health. Let me know your secret if you have one.

knowing your personal Low O2 situation signs is helpful. Some people get a noticeable blind spot /vision challenge when short of O2.

 

 

Atlantic City O2 incident... 68 years old and 25,000'

http://6abc.com/news/plane-that-crashed-off-atlantic-city-went-silent-for-final-2-hours/977785/

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Did they ever find the plane?

[carusoam]

Hank,

According to the report... the descent was not really controlled, many thousands of fpm in the final minutes of flight.  Indicating the plane was more of a collection of parts spread in a debris field... 7 miles out to see...

Best regards,

-a-

[M016576]

2 hours ago, gsengle said:

 

Just makes me to nervous to go over 20k single pilot. Too dangerous for me, one kink in the line and you don't notice and...

But makes me wonder why we don't have better o2 systems than we do. More military grade...


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A fellow eagle driver died due to hypoxia a few years back.  Regulator failed and cockpit depressurized.  At 41,000 the time of Useful Consciousness is only about 5 seconds.  The jet hit the ground at over 650 kts.

im with you gsengle- going over 18K (roughly 30 minutes of useful conciousness) makes me want a backup O2 bottle, and keeps me alert to my personal hypoxia symptoms.  If you routinely travel above 18K in an unpressurized aircraft, you're really rolling the dice if you haven't done some chamber or ROBD training.... 

[Urs_Wildermuth]

I've had my M20C / Powerflow up at 17500 ft... albeit at a day which had 20° C over ISA, so DA was close to 22'000 ft.

[peevee]

9 hours ago, M016576 said:

 

 you haven't done some chamber training.... 

Btdt

[N9201A]

201 with PowerFlow, multiple trips to 17,500 to take advantage of winds. And +1 on concerns in 20s in unpressurized aircraft. Some chamber time helped illustrate the importance of one's "time of useful consciousness" being greater than the "time to safe altitude."


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[Danb]

Gregg I was the Mooney behind the good Doctor going into the PPP at ACY, the returns on flightaware had him at 25,000 ft, that was a somber weekend for sure. I've been even more aware of altitude since then if possible