Ramp and Other Fees AGAIN!

[chrisk]

31 minutes ago, peevee said:

Most of Colorado ski country is about like that.

I would not call Montrose Colorado ski country.  And that will still be no excuse for excessive pricing at a public airport. To the south are Telluride, Durango, and Pagosa Springs, Taos, and Angle Fire, all of which I would call close to skiing.  All of which have reasonable fees.

[peevee]

39 minutes ago, chrisk said:

I would not call Montrose Colorado ski country.  And that will still be no excuse for excessive pricing at a public airport. To the south are Telluride, Durango, and Pagosa Springs, Taos, and Angle Fire, all of which I would call close to skiing.  All of which have reasonable fees.

Clearly you don't see the volume into Montrose around the busy ski weekends. 

[chrisk]

2 hours ago, peevee said:

Clearly you don't see the volume into Montrose around the busy ski weekends. 

You are right.  I don't see the volume. (and airnav indicates its the same as Durango)   But air traffic volume at this airport isn't the issue.  The issue is Montrose is a public airport which gets public funding.  Any pilot should be able to use a public airport without fees.  --The problem being Atlantic is allowed to prevent us from using a public airport, for its intended purpose (enablement of travel/commerce), without paying Atlantic.  This is no different than someone being allowed to build a gas station on the exit ramp of an interstate, and then charging you fees for opening a gate to let you out(unless you buy their over priced fuel).

Now, if it was a private airport, that gets no federal funding, then they can charge what ever they want for access.

[rbridges]

I just flew into Sarasota. Pleasantly surprised with fees. 10-15 dollars per night depending on the FBO. No other fees. No fuel minimums.  Dolphin and Rectrix are the FBOs. 

[gsxrpilot]

I've been into Durango four or five times over the last couple of years. I don't recall ever paying any fees there.

[cliffy]

Now here's a kicker

I checked Montrose county minimum standards for FBOs and see where they require the rental of 350,000 sq ft of ramp and hangar footprint (250,000 in ramp alone) to be an FBO at the airport. Clearly looking to provide only Taj Mahal service stations on that airport so only the big boys can play and then only one will build. A monopoly by any other name. Set the bar so high no one can enter the game.  Now, I have no idea what the rental rate is but pick something and multiply it out and see what the monthly nut is just for the land! I'm not advocating for the FBO by any means but it might also be the county sticking their sticky fingers in the pot also. Greed and politics make cordial bed partners. 

As I said all along, access will need to come through Grant Assurances and the FAA before this ever stops. You take Fed money, you provide a minimum service for the money- tie down, rest room, access gate with tie down fees after so many hours on the ground. Whether the FBO has to provide it or the airport sponsor, it makes no difference but this will only happen through the FAA. The AOPA is on the wrong track with just looking to lower fees. It goes much deeper than the FBO sometimes. 

GA is dying 

[peevee]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've been into Durango four or five times over the last couple of years. I don't recall ever paying any fees there.

Avflight dro is good. But it's not Atlantic that owns mtj ase and 2 others that escape me. Avflight is old school. I get in there almost weekly for angel flight West.

[peevee]

1 hour ago, chrisk said:

You are right.  I don't see the volume. (and airnav indicates its the same as Durango)   But air traffic volume at this airport isn't the issue.  The issue is Montrose is a public airport which gets public funding.  Any pilot should be able to use a public airport without fees.  --The problem being Atlantic is allowed to prevent us from using a public airport, for its intended purpose (enablement of travel/commerce), without paying Atlantic.  This is no different than someone being allowed to build a gas station on the exit ramp of an interstate, and then charging you fees for opening a gate to let you out(unless you buy their over priced fuel).

Now, if it was a private airport, that gets no federal funding, then they can charge what ever they want for access.

Not exactly. Atlantic owns the fbo at mtj. Their bread and butter is the overflow jet traffic going into mtj when they can't get space at Tex, which has a very very small ramp. It's the same story as Aspen. Wealthy people that don't care what it costs, that's the business they want, just like heber city I was just at. You and I aren't their demographic.

[FlyWalt]

The first and last time someone tried to pull the landing fee plus ramp fee plus security fee routine on me, I got steamed, asked the agent at the desk where was the sign located that would have told me about those fees before I used their ramp and thier security. I also reminded her that my taxes already paid for the runway that I just landed on. She had nothing to say. I then told her that there was NO CONTRACT between us for those fees and that I WOULD NOT PAY THEM. I turned and left with my party and baggage. When I returned 3 days later, we were charged for Normal tie down fees only.

Getting assertive and standing your ground works.

PS. It was Signature in AVL

Edited June 25, 2017 by FlyWalt
Addition

[cliffy]

I wonder what would happen if we all just refused to pay those charges?

[aviatoreb]

11 minutes ago, cliffy said:

I wonder what would happen if we all just refused to pay those charges?

Collections agency.

[The Other Red Baron]

Need to install one of these:

Edited June 25, 2017 by revwatch

[Cyril Gibb]

It all comes back to AOPA.  They say they are speaking for us, but it sounds more like they are afraid to offend the FBOs.   I believe that competition is the key to keeping FBO costs down.  It's not anywhere near practical to call each FBO at every airport near our destination to ask a series of questions:  Do you have a ramp fee, do you have a security fee, do you have a customs ramp fee, do you have a handling fee, do you have a fuel surcharge, are there any other charges I haven't asked about that I'll have to pay?  And then call the airport admin with the same questions, because the FBOs don't always collect fees for the airport.  Then call customs to see if they have any charges.... sheesh !

It's NOT the fee! If we have the information we can decide to use their services or not.

It's not knowing what the fee IS until they already have their hands in our pockets! 

[ragedracer1977]

10 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Collections agency.

Since no fees are listed anywhere for most of these places, and you don't find out until you land, it seems like it would be difficult for them to make a case to legally collect.

[cliffy]

So you say I walk into a shoe store and turn around and leave and they say I owe them $10 just for walking in with no signs in place and I refuse to pay, that they have a case for collections? I'm not a barrister but I'll bet that's a hard one to collect and for less than $100? No way.

[aviatoreb]

47 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Since no fees are listed anywhere for most of these places, and you don't find out until you land, it seems like it would be difficult for them to make a case to legally collect.

I bet this might stand up in court and an FBo might loose if someone sued them to stop harassing them if they tried over such charges.

but as I understand it the collections agency route has little recourse for the consumer even if unjustified.  They could turn you over to collections over a ten dollar bill then those collections guys will pursue you relentlessly for that ten buck plus a massive profit - with great powers to hurt you financially if you don't comply or have legal means to stop them.

[Browncbr1]

7 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I bet this might stand up in court and an FBo might loose if someone sued them to stop harassing them if they tried over such charges.

but as I understand it the collections agency route has little recourse for the consumer even if unjustified.  They could turn you over to collections over a ten dollar bill then those collections guys will pursue you relentlessly for that ten buck plus a massive profit - with great powers to hurt you financially if you don't comply or have legal means to stop them.

All you need to say to a collections agency to make them stop calling is, calmly, " I have free representation."

[takair]

As a couple of others have said, Foreflight offers a comment section as well.  I have taken to reading those and rarely go to Airnav now.  I have found they (Foreflight and Airnav) are more likely to publish simple, fact based comments than rants.  Most of us can read between the lines and make a decision if we want to pay $40 for a drop off.. Takes 5 minutes to submit and it may provide some of the best leverage we have on fighting hidden fees.  Just comment on what you paid and what services you received.  Individuals can then determine if it is worth it to them for the mission they are flying.

[FlyWalt]

12 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I bet this might stand up in court and an FBo might loose if someone sued them to stop harassing them if they tried over such charges.

but as I understand it the collections agency route has little recourse for the consumer even if unjustified.  They could turn you over to collections over a ten dollar bill then those collections guys will pursue you relentlessly for that ten buck plus a massive profit - with great powers to hurt you financially if you don't comply or have legal means to stop them.

As a business owner who submits delinquent accounts to the collections agencies on a regular basis, they will send a letter and maybe a phone call or two on a ten dollar account. But they are not going to chase it with gusto. Furthermore, the lack of a written agreement on said bogus fees will nix any collection effort.

The entire industry needs to gather together and say FU to this kind of BS. It hurts everybody involved. Including the FBO.

Do you honestly think I will EVER darken a Signature door again? Heck no. And that is a shame for the city that allows them to operate a monopoly at their airport. In the case of Asheville, I now avoid it and land at 0A7 and get GREAT service from a locally owned business. 

[exM20K]

13 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

It all comes back to AOPA.  They say they are speaking for us, but it sounds more like they are afraid to offend the FBOs.   I believe that competition is the key to keeping FBO costs down.  It's not anywhere near practical to call each FBO at every airport near our destination to ask a series of questions:  Do you have a ramp fee, do you have a security fee, do you have a customs ramp fee, do you have a handling fee, do you have a fuel surcharge, are there any other charges I haven't asked about that I'll have to pay?  And then call the airport admin with the same questions, because the FBOs don't always collect fees for the airport.  Then call customs to see if they have any charges.... sheesh !

It's NOT the fee! If we have the information we can decide to use their services or not.

It's not knowing what the fee IS until they already have their hands in our pockets! 

 There will be peak/off peak/weekend/special event changes or imposition/suspension of fees, so calling every FBO will be a non-comprehensive snapshot.  What AOPA is trying to do is to document the really outrageous fees when they are charged, and I believe it's a worthwhile effort.

[Cyril Gibb]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

 There will be peak/off peak/weekend/special event changes or imposition/suspension of fees, so calling every FBO will be a non-comprehensive snapshot.  What AOPA is trying to do is to document the really outrageous fees when they are charged, and I believe it's a worthwhile effort.

A quick search on the AOPA site shows an issue beginning in 2014.  I see an article in January of this year and then several since then.  I still see zero information but lots of hand-wringing. "Documenting" outrageous fees provides no value to GA unless it's published.  AOPA has the data.  As an AOPA member, I'd like to see the data.

The ONLY solution is to make the fee structure visible so we can decide where to spend our $$.  This isn't rocket science.

Edit: yes, I have requested  from AOPA the collected data thus far

[Guest]

On June 24, 2017 at 2:48 PM, FoxMike said:

chrisk,

A letter would be a good idea but unlikely to do much damage.  I would suggest you address it to the Montrose County Airport Manager, 2100 Airport Road, Montrose, Co, 81401.

I'd add a copy to the local chamber of commerce and the local tourism office.

Clarence

[chrisk]

On 6/24/2017 at 1:48 PM, FoxMike said:

chrisk,

A letter would be a good idea but unlikely to do much damage.  I would suggest you address it to the Montrose County Airport Manager, 2100 Airport Road, Montrose, Co, 81401.

Letter written today.  In the mail tomorrow.

[The Other Red Baron]

This is kind of a silly question since we're talking about being blindsided by these fees, but does anyone know a source to find these fees?  Antares mentioned some raw data source earlier in the thread but I've been googling around and I'm not finding anything that would be relevant. 

[cliffy]

revwatch- That's the problem NONE of them are published and the charges change from day to day or counter rep to counter rep. Some won''t even quote their fees over the phone. Some of the worst even have airnav not publish any info from customers visits on their site. Lots of times when you call and get a quote it changes when you get there.