Bendix/King --- Are you kidding???

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, gsengle said:

So basically we have zero good options?

 

At the moment yes. That's why it's so important that TruTrak and others know how anxious Mooney owners are to install their autopilots once they become certified. I would expect Garmin to jump in one of these times, but it won't be cheap.

[1964-M20E]

I don't like this either. BK should at least let existing shops continue what they have been dong for years.  New BK products with more advanced circuitry could start the process to go back to the factory for service.

Older electronics with more individual components can be troubleshot much easier by someone who knows what is going on.  My Avidyne 540 is nothing more than a computer with a touch screen interface and a few special IO cards to handle RF inputs-outputs and drivers to the OBS all tightly packed into a little box.  Software does most of the work in the Avidyne and the new Garmins for that matter.

 

 

 

[gsengle]

At the moment yes. That's why it's so important that TruTrak and others know how anxious Mooney owners are to install their autopilots once they become certified. I would expect Garmin to jump in one of these times, but it won't be cheap.

Are any of these up and coming options like TruTrak actually attitude based autopilots?


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[aviatoreb]

If BK actually goes through with this maneuver, they would end up grounding a large fraction of the GA fleet, since even if people were willing to pay $15k to overhaul a servo, BK simply would not have the ability to keep up with all the demand -  they would be overwhelmed - but then....people will not be willing/able to spend $15k to overhaul a servo, or $55k for a 4'' crt screen.

[aviatoreb]

39 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

At the moment yes. That's why it's so important that TruTrak and others know how anxious Mooney owners are to install their autopilots once they become certified. I would expect Garmin to jump in one of these times, but it won't be cheap.

Trutrak is looking ever more attractive.

[Godfather]

44 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The Garmin GFC700 is certified with the G1000 for the Mooney but not the G500.

Century has some autopilots STC'd through the M20K, but I think it's only Bendix King, STEC and Garmin (on G1000 airplanes only) on anything newer.

http://www.centuryflight.com/stcs/stc-list/other-aircraft/1286-mooney.html

Which in my mind means we are left waiting for the Garmin 700 AP to be certified w/ the g500.  The other options would be a downgrade from the BK unit i currently have. 

[gsengle]

Which in my mind means we are left waiting for the Garmin 700 AP to be certified w/ the g500.  The other options would be a downgrade from the BK unit i currently have. 

Any sign of that in the works? How does the Garmin AP compare to a well operating say KFC150?


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[Godfather]

43 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

At the moment yes. That's why it's so important that TruTrak and others know how anxious Mooney owners are to install their autopilots once they become certified. I would expect Garmin to jump in one of these times, but it won't be cheap.

If they jump in the an AP for the G5 it still won't work for my aircraft. Can't be used for primary because I have a flight director, can't be used as a backup as it is not certified for that...don't want to think about all the legal reasons Garmin will make up to keep a reasonable cost AP out of my plane.

I'd really like to see an AP option from Garmin but I have a feeling it will be a 60amu g500/700 adventure. 

[gsengle]

If they jump in the an AP for the G5 it still won't work for my aircraft. Can't be used for primary because I have a flight director, can't be used as a backup as it is not certified for that...don't want to think about all the legal reasons Garmin will make up to keep a reasonable cost AP out of my plane.
I'd really like to see an AP option from Garmin but I have a feeling it will be a 60amu g500/700 adventure. 

I agree, but we are running out of options and I see something like the G500 in my future anyhow.... unless the guy who overhauls our KI256s lives a long time.


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[StevenL757]

All - we should probably hit Pause for a minute.  I've read through every post here, and unless I'm missing it, no one has referenced or posted the actual note sent out.  I've attached it below.  Although there is truth that BK will require the items in the list to be sent back to them for repair/OH/replacement, what's notably missing are the KAP-150, KFC-150, KFC-225, KFC-325 autopilot computers, their respective servos, and other related components.  I confirmed with my shop and through BK that these items are left off by design, and can continue to be serviced and supported in the field as they are now.

Please take a read through the note, and although there is valid concern from many of us about items that ARE on the list, any of us with BK autopilots will be able to obtain services as we do today, hence, are not at-risk.  Should your shop of choice not be able to repair or replace any component of an autopilot (due to lack of skill set, equipment, or other limitation), then that shop would engage BK as needed.  Hope this provides a bit of clarity and perspective.

Steve

May 1 Bendix King.pdf

[gsengle]

Thanks so much Steve. That's a great clarification.

 

That said our gear is aging so a discussion of the alternatives is a healthy one.

 

Greg

 

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[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

If someone wanted seriously to replace their king KFC 150 for example and was willing to spend $$$ what are the options today? G500 and the Garmin autopilot?


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We only wish....

[AndyFromCB]

For the life of me, I do not understand how Avidyne has not managed to develop their own servo set yet. Their DFC90 autopilot is world class product, as good as Garmin GFC, but requires S-Tec servos to run so pretty much available only as a replacement for S-Tec 55X. 

Same thing with their R9 platform that just quietly went away after getting installed in a few Cirrus aircraft. It was quite amazing of a system. If they offered a 50K all in replacement of everything in the aircraft, they would have so many takers. It was a 3 box unit plus the DFC autopilot. But then it just kind of died. Would have been so much better than the G500 combo.

Edited May 11, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[gsengle]

We only wish....

Has anyone else heard what I've been told by an avionics guy - that the KI300 product has been killed?


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[donkaye, MCFI]

28 minutes ago, gsengle said:

 

Any sign of that in the works? How does the Garmin AP compare to a well operating say KFC150?


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In my opinion the best GA AP out there.  With the KFC 150 AP every time you are given a new altimeter setting you have to adjust your altitude with the AP.  Not so with the GFC 700.  The altimeter setting is fed back to the AP and your altitude is automatically readjusted.

[gsengle]

In my opinion the best GA AP out there.  With the KFC 150 AP every time you are given a new altimeter setting you have to adjust your altitude with the AP.  Not so with the GFC 700.  The altimeter setting is fed back to the AP and your altitude is automatically readjusted.

Anyone ever get an answer from Garmin why it won't work with their G500? Or is it certified but just not in our airframes?


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[StevenL757]

Yes.  Briefly, the GFC700 works with the GIA63 WAAS modules as part of the G1000 suite's install.  Its GDU1040, 1042, and 1044 displays are simply that - displays.  To make the GFC700 work with a GDU620 display ("G500/G600"), you'd conceivably have to tie it in with say, a GTN750, 650, or other equipment that functions similarly to the GIA63 hardware.

Small Edit:  Trek, where are you?  Trek?  :-)

[gsengle]

Yes.  Briefly, the GFC700 works with the GIA63 WAAS modules as part of the G1000 suite's install.  Its GDU1040, 1042, and 1044 displays are simply that - displays.  To make the GFC700 work with a GDU620 display ("G500/G600"), you'd conceivably have to tie it in with say, a GTN750, 650, or other equipment that functions similarly to the GIA63 hardware.

You'd think in a good modular design the G500 and the G1000 would share logic/software/components, to the degree they are doing the same thing...


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[AndyFromCB]

I think the biggest issue is inability to certify autopilots with an AML. Each specific make/model has to be individually certified making it not worth it for Garmin at the moment. With different certification rules, who knows. I'm pretty positive that G500 can feed the GFC700 autopilot just fine as pretty much all of Garmin's gear runs on the same base software platform, which incidentally is why I would never use G5 to back up G500 or G1000. Software failure modes are probably fairly identical.

[Jerry 5TJ]

20 minutes ago, donkaye said:

In my opinion the best GA AP out there.  With the KFC 150 AP every time you are given a new altimeter setting you have to adjust your altitude with the AP.  Not so with the GFC 700.  The altimeter setting is fed back to the AP and your altitude is automatically readjusted.

KFC-225 suite also adjusts for changes in baro settings.  Nice feature. 

[Godfather]

10 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

KFC-225 suite also adjusts for changes in baro settings.  Nice feature. 

Yep, the altitude encoding feature works great. Make sure you don't load it up with too many devices or it will overload it. 

[gsengle]

Nice feature but not a huge deal in practice. What I'm more curious about is how smoothly and crisply it handles the airplane.

 

From the right seat at least the Garmin seemed a bit, er, subtle compared to the King. Wasn't sure if it was reacting fast enough....

 

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[AndyFromCB]

13 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Nice feature but not a huge deal in practice. What I'm more curious about is how smoothly and crisply it handles the airplane.

 

From the right seat at least the Garmin seemed a bit, er, subtle compared to the King. Wasn't sure if it was reacting fast enough....

 

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Difference between GFC700 and pretty much everything else short of the likes of ProLine21 and some upper end gear I've never had the pleasure to fly is that it reacts exactly as fast as it needs to with total, complete smoothness being the overall goal unless dictated otherwise. It can do that because it "looks" into the future as opposed to simply reacting. It just never missed the beat. It's the only GA autopilot that I do not disconnect at 1000' on ILS approach and in a pinch (0/0), I would allow to fly me into the runway. I have no issue what so ever flipping it on 10 seconds after takeoff in a busy airspace. Same software powers some very large equipment from Cessna's jet line where autopilot on after rotation and gear up is the norm.

Edited May 11, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[gsengle]

Thanks that's really helpful. It took some getting used to.


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[flyboy0681]

Just now, Hyett6420 said:

 Yes the KFC etc autopilot unit was NOT on the list BUT the 525 and 256 are, so my AI and HSI which are critical to my ap function and being mechanical will have a mtbf.  

 

That's where your beautiful new Aspen comes in.