M20F Approach Configuration

[M20F]

5 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

there's a countervailing view: since you need power to maintain the profile with flaps, it means less work when reducing power for landing after breaking out.

Half flaps for take off, thus I like having half flaps for the go around.  I always fly with the intent of a missed, not a landing. My thoughts on the topic. 

[FloridaMan]

18 hours ago, Marauder said:

Here is what I use:

This strikes me as correct. I have only flown one approach to minimums in my M20F as I have personal limits of 1000ft ceilings, but sometimes shit happens and conditions are worse than expected. I configure GUMPS as soon as possible so I can focus on flying the approach and I come in as hot as possible in landing configuration, which with manual gear, would be 100KIAS. Nearly all airports with ILS approaches have runways long enough that you can bleed off enough airspeed from your DH to land without issue and the extra speed is good insurance for anything from windshear, unexpected turbulence, pilot distraction, et cetera. 

[Cyril Gibb]

For newbies it may not be obvious.. make sure you know what the rpm restrictions are for your specific airframe/engine/prop combination... they vary quite a bit.  My restriction is 2350-2550 only at high MP.

My approach technique is silmilar to the others here.  From cruise I back off MP to what I know is 95kts with approach flaps. When Gladys slows to the top of the white arc I drop approach flaps and retrim.  I need to touch nothing until just before glide slope intercept when I drop the gear and retrim.  It will then descend at 3 degrees.  If I get it right, I don't touch the throttle from exiting cruise until landing.  Consistency and a stabilised approach is my objective.  (I never step down). In Canada, doing a step down on a checkride is autofail.

[Marauder]

I think Cyril is spot on. Flying a stabilized approach is the key. Finding the power/attitude and configurations to get you to fly a stabilized approach is the objective.


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[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, M20F said:

Half flaps for take off, thus I like having half flaps for the go around.  I always fly with the intent of a missed, not a landing. My thoughts on the topic. 

So do the folks who don't use flaps. I don't know anyone who flies approaches with no flaps who will add flaps for a missed approach at DH or MDA. Just different techniques, neither one intrinsically right or wrong (unless one or the other is, as some have discussed, to stay out of a particular MP/ RPM limitation).

[M20F]

I guess my take is if half flaps is most lift than that is what I would want departing or doing a missed.  I don't really see a compelling reason not to.  I generally don't use full flaps for landing though unless the runway is really short. 

[druidjaidan]

On 1/30/2017 at 5:13 AM, slowflyin said:

Another reason to use flaps is to keep the prop rpm above 2350.  A lot of us  are prohibited from running from 2100-2350.  (some are placarded 2000-2350)  The added required power you mentioned accomplishes this nicely.

Counterpoint:  If we put in flaps we can't maintain a stable approach outside the red range.  With my flaps being limited to 105mph our power setting required to maintain glideslope is within the red range.  If we remove the flaps the power setting drops below the red arc for a 105mph approach and above it for a 120mph approach (and obviously we can't add flaps for the 120mph approach due to the lower Vfe).

 

[Marauder]

16 minutes ago, druidjaidan said:

Counterpoint:  If we put in flaps we can't maintain a stable approach outside the red range.  With my flaps being limited to 105mph our power setting required to maintain glideslope is within the red range.  If we remove the flaps the power setting drops below the red arc for a 105mph approach and above it for a 120mph approach (and obviously we can't add flaps for the 120mph approach due to the lower Vfe).

 

We may have discussed this earlier. Your flap speed should be 109 KIAS or 125 MPH and gear should be 104 KIAS or 120 MPH. Are you making your power decisions based on the lower speeds? If you use 16" MP (may be 15" depending on temperature) and use 2400 RPM, you should settle in around 107 KIAS which is slow enough to add flaps. Once added your speed should slow to 100 KIAS and your RPM should be still be above the red zone. If you are unable to maintain RPM at 15" or 16" I really wonder if your gauges are not accurate or you have an issue with your prop governor.

[druidjaidan]

10 minutes ago, Marauder said:

We may have discussed this earlier. Your flap speed should be 109 KIAS or 125 MPH and gear should be 104 KIAS or 120 MPH. Are you making your power decisions based on the lower speeds? If you use 16" MP (may be 15" depending on temperature) and use 2400 RPM, you should settle in around 107 KIAS which is slow enough to add flaps. Once added your speed should slow to 100 KIAS and your RPM should be still be above the red zone. If you are unable to maintain RPM at 15" or 16" I really wonder if your gauges are not accurate or you have an issue with your prop governor.

We discussed it earlier and I thought you had concluded I had it right for my model year =).  I promise you that my Vfe is 105mph and Vle is 120mph on my 66 F, I have all the early model stuff: retractable step, smooth control surfaces, manual gear, etc.  That Vfe changes a lot of things power setting wise I imagine. 

I think I've worked out the MP issue and I'm going to have a mechanic address it (no vent hole in the MP line).  But that doesn't affect the RPM range issue or the effective power issue, just the gauge calibration (and I believe my 3" offset from the MAPA number).  The governor doesn't know anything about what the MP gauge is reading =).  I believe the RPM to be accurate, but I'll likely have it checked while in as well.

None of this I think changes the issue we ran into being that a Vfe (105mph) we were unable to maintain glideslope with flaps extended and power outside the red arc.

[M20F]

 

16 minutes ago, druidjaidan said:

  I promise you that my Vfe is 105mph and Vle is 120mph on my 66 F

Can confirm speeds are correct

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, M20F said:

 

Can confirm speeds are correct

Unless there was a change between the 66 and 67, the speeds I quoted above are the V speed for flaps and gear. Maybe there is something unique about the 66 F, but I can't see what would changed to make these speeds lower. Does the 66 have the short rudder?

[carusoam]

Newer Moonies got stronger gear and caution zones removed from the prop/tach. If that didn't work they added speed brakes.

It is a delicate balance to fit into what the original set-up for,a,60s Mooney compared to one 30 year newer...

the avoid continuous ops between rpm ranges is somewhat serious. Sort of like the Vfe issues.  Things break and need to get fixed.  These things are expensive.

Spar parts are known to crack and use doubters to fix.  Engine mounts break their welds.

PP thoughts only. Not a CFI nor a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I don't see a 66 F listed on the Mooney POH site. http://www.mooney.com/en/pdf/OM_POH_Pubs_Status.pdf

His serial number is: 670015 which shows he should be using the 67 POH. I found a POH online. His speeds are what he quoted. 105 MPH for flap & 120 MPH for gear. Hopefully some of the 67 owners can chime in with power recommendations.

[carusoam]

Very similar to the 77 POH for M20C...

VNE 200

max structural speed 175

max maneuvering 132

max gear ops 120

max gear extend 120

max flap ops 125

All airspeeds are CAS...

Best regards,

-a-

[apenney]

On 1/29/2017 at 4:35 PM, druidjaidan said:

Mine is also "avoid continuous operation".  I've gotten some mixed signals on what exactly that means across a couple threads reading about it.  The description I've heard most commonly though is that you can transit the RPM range, but you shouldn't stop in it.  That implies to me that an approach shouldn't be flown in the red range.  I'm not sure what qualifies as "continuous". It's a nice ambiguous term.  Is 30 seconds continuous, is 2 minutes continuous, 15min, is anytime the needle stops continuous?

Thought I'd respond to this thread because I'm in the process of determining my approach configurations and wondered about the red zone "continuous" operation question as well.  My Mooney M20F operators manual for serial numbers 22-1179 and beyond states: "In selecting a cruise RPM, the engine must not be continuously operated within the range of 2100-2350 RPM."

[GDGR]

On 1/31/2017 at 9:18 PM, Marauder said:

Unless there was a change between the 66 and 67, the speeds I quoted above are the V speed for flaps and gear. Maybe there is something unique about the 66 F, but I can't see what would changed to make these speeds lower. Does the 66 have the short rudder?

My '74 F is Vfe 125 Vle 120 mph. Check your POH as there are downloadable checklists on here that vary from year to year, aircraft to aircraft.

[Marauder]

My '74 F is Vfe 125 Vle 120 mph. Check your POH as there are downloadable checklists on here that vary from year to year, aircraft to aircraft.

Those are the same speeds I have 109 KIAS for VFo/VFe and 104 KIAS for VLo/VLe.


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[Shadrach]

On 1/31/2017 at 11:33 PM, Marauder said:

I don't see a 66 F listed on the Mooney POH site. http://www.mooney.com/en/pdf/OM_POH_Pubs_Status.pdf

His serial number is: 670015 which shows he should be using the 67 POH. I found a POH online. His speeds are what he quoted. 105 MPH for flap & 120 MPH for gear. Hopefully some of the 67 owners can chime in with power recommendations.

Easiest to just check the TCDS, Vfe increased FROM 105mph to 125mph with SN 680002:

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by Shadrach

[Ragsf15e]

I use 120mph clean while vectoring for an approach, but slow to 90mph & takeoff flaps & gear on the ils.  120 mph is the max gear speed for my 68F, so that’s clearly too fast to be flying the approach.  80 is mushy... 90 works great.  100 probably ok.  I use 40% power from the JPI 930 as a starting point at glide slope intercept.  

As you mentioned, there’s a good bit of extra airspeed to dump after you break out.   I generally just leave the flaps, but pull some power and retrim for 80-85mph.  Usually runways with precision approaches are long and it’s not an issue, but 120 mph on final definitely too fast for me.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Ragsf15e

[Shiny moose]

On 10/4/2018 at 9:09 PM, Shadrach said:

Easiest to just check the TCDS, Vfe increased FROM 105mph to 125mph with SN 680002:

 

What I see on that TCDS is flap speed is 125 mph up to 680001 therefore starting 680002 and after flap speed is 105 mph  (I am now confused) 

[Marauder]

What I see on that TCDS is flap speed is 125 mph up to 680001 therefore starting 680002 and after flap speed is 105 mph  (I am now confused) 

I think it is a typo. I think it should read “after” and not “to”. My POH shows 109 KIAS for both VLo and VLe.


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[Hank]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

I think it is a typo. I think it should read “after” and not “to”. My POH shows 109 KIAS for both VLo and VLe.

 

The Owners Manual for my 1970 C has Vfe = 125 mph, while Vge = Vgo = 120 mph. Knots weren't in use in 1970 . . . .

[Marauder]

The Owners Manual for my 1970 C has Vfe = 125 mph, while Vge = Vgo = 120 mph. Knots weren't in use in 1970 . . . .

Huh? I was replying to Shiny Moose’s comments about the apparent drop in the VFe/VFo speed dropping from 120 mph to 105 mph. I think it was a typo.


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[Shiny moose]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

Huh? I was replying to Shiny Moose’s comments about the apparent drop in the VFe/VFo speed dropping from 120 mph to 105 mph. I think it was a typo.


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Im sure it was a typo, just causing drama on MS. but don’t you think something like that could cause confusion

I have a 67F , POH speeds 120mph gear 105 flaps, 

[Marauder]

Im sure it was a typo, just causing drama on MS. but don’t you think something like that could cause confusion
I have a 67F , POH speeds 120mph gear 105 flaps, 

Yep. You would think at some point it would have been corrected. At least Al Mooney is looking down and saying to himself, “they are still talking about my planes!”


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