New Member, Very Close to Buying C Model

[MBDiagMan]

Well a kind soul who has been helping me immensely via private message now has me worried.

I have an instructor at my home field that taught me to fly 26years ago in an Aeronca Champ.  He has owned Mooneys and has done checkouts and complex training in them.  He did my last biannual review in my taildragger.  In talking with him about my moving to a Mooney, his take on it is that the Mooney will be easier for me to fly than the taildragger that I am in now.

The kind member that was helping me via private message said that the transition record is terrible with many prop strikes and other problems.  He put this forward when I told him that I was using my Tailwheel instructor for my Mooney training, and he did not yet know that he was a Mooney guy too.

NOW, I have had many people here tell me how much they love flying their Mooney.  Others talk about going to a Mooney at 60 hours total time.  I typically three point a taildragger, so I am accustomed to flaring with tail low.  At this point in time my flying is a little rusty although I have flown much more than usual the last week or so and the rust is coming off.

SO..... Are these planes tricky or not?  My thinking and apparently the insurance actuaries thinking is that tailwheel time makes me statistically less risk moving to this plane than coming from some other tricycle planes.

What do you guys say?

i hope this doesn't trigger some sort of controversy.

Edited February 1, 2017 by MBDiagMan

[KSMooniac]

You're on the right track...if your CFI has good Mooney experience you'll be fine. If he has very little, then you might want to find another. A good Mooney CFI will transition you more efficiently and safely.

Having said that, just remember to not land unless you're at an appropriate speed for the total weight. Going too fast, even 5 mph, leads to over runs, bounces, prop strikes, etc. if your technique isn't good to recover.

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[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for the informative response.

okay, a follow up question....  Insurance requires 5hours duel.  I am fully aware that this will be a different amount for different people, but would 5 hours be typical?  Would it typically be more?

[Skates97]

4 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Thanks for the informative response.

okay, a follow up question....  Insurance requires 5hours duel.  I am fully aware that this will be a different amount for different people, but would 5 hours be typical?  Would it typically be more?

I think the answer is "It depends." I took my check-ride for my PPL at 46.7 hours and bought my Mooney at 60.6 hours total time. My insurance required 10 dual and then 5 solo before carrying passengers. I was not comfortable with it at 5 hours dual, but by the time we were at 7-8 hours I was feeling very good about it.

I don't think they are tricky to fly, they just don't like to slow down. I think I still slow down sooner than I need to before entering the pattern but that's because I am still getting used to how long I really need to slow it down (I'd rather be at pattern speed before getting to the pattern than trying to slow it down as I enter the pattern). However the more time I spend in it the better feel I get for the speed control.

Just don't try to land with too much speed. I did that once, bounced twice, and went around. The next one I was much more careful on my speed and it was better.

Do the 5 hours that are required and if you still don't feel comfortable do a few more hours with your CFI until you do feel comfortable.

[rbridges]

IMO, landing a mooney in flare is like landing a cherokee in flare.  You just gotta be more attentive to the speeds.  The mooney will float further than a cherokee.  Don't try to force the mooney on the runway, just let it glide until it touches down on its own.

[MBDiagMan]

I fully understand that "it depends."  I am just trying to get an idea what is typical.

I am also trying to get opinions regarding necessary instructor qualifications.  Is it really necessary to get someone who has done lots of transition training into a mooney.

[LANCECASPER]

30 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I fully understand that "it depends."  I am just trying to get an idea what is typical.

I am also trying to get opinions regarding necessary instructor qualifications.  Is it really necessary to get someone who has done lots of transition training into a mooney.

Since you asked . . .  yes. I believe in using experts wherever possible. You end up paying them a little more for their lifetime of experience and you get a lot more as opposed to paying a little less and getting a lot less. You are buying a complex piece of equipment, get a person who knows it inside and out and get the most out of it that you can. You will never regret excellent training, you may regret later what seems like adequate training at the time.

[rbridges]

45 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I fully understand that "it depends."  I am just trying to get an idea what is typical.

I am also trying to get opinions regarding necessary instructor qualifications.  Is it really necessary to get someone who has done lots of transition training into a mooney.

I think it definitely helps.  My airport isn't exactly overrun with mooney instructors.  I actually had to add my instrument instructor to my insurance b/c he didn't have any mooney time.  I did okay, but I've definitely learned more as I've flown.  Having someone more familiar with your plane would accelerate your proficiency.

[carusoam]

The fun part of this conversation is...it is simple...

1) get Transition Training from a Mooney specific CFI.

2) use the delivery flight as part of the TT.

3) The reason you use this CFI is the quirks are specific to the Mooney.

4) The Mooney isn't hard to fly or land, unless your CFI isn't familiar with all the traits.

5) The C140 has some nice specific things to know.  It can be hard to land.  

6) knowing how to fly one plane doesn't make you better at the other.  It does sort of.  But it takes extra work to ferret out all the differences.

7) Since you will be PIC and any small mistakes cost you many AMUs, the way people handle it Best is to call the Mooney specific CFI.

8) the only reason not to do it this way is shortage of cash, time, or something else.  The risk is now fully understood.  Fair warning has been provided.

9) review all the normal parts of flight, short, soft, T&L, Climb, cruise, descent, short and soft landing.  Then review the emergency  versions of everything.  Go arounds can be a wild ride, engine out ops take some practice.

10) buying the experience from a good teacher is less risky than being self taught.

My logic is based on my experience.  I didn't have the guidance or the cash for the right CFI.  We had a partial loss of power caused by a stuck valve. I wouldn't do that again, and I would have had a JPI put in the panel next.

Just because the plane is 50 years old, doesn't mean we should fly it like we would 50 years ago...

This isn't to say your C140 CFI isn't good.  He probably can cover 90% of all the important details.  You want the exposure that comes from 100% of the details...

TT should be an enjoyable experience, learning everything you can about the specific airplane including its specific navcom radios.

Its all about doing the best you can with what you have.  PPIs make sense when buying a plane.  TT makes sense when flying the plane.

Thinking out loud...

PP thoughts only. I bought TT twice to match the PPIs I bought...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited February 1, 2017 by carusoam

[MBDiagMan]

Okay, it is very obvious to the casual observer that having an instructor that has done many Mooney transitions is better than one who hasn't.  The question is how good at Mooney transitions is the local instructor I have in mind?  He is not the instructor that taught me to fly the 140.  He taught me to fly in his Aeronca Champ 27 years ago.  That does not mean that his repertories is limited to taildraggers.  He has owned at least two Mooneys during the fifty or so years he. has been instructing.  I don't know how much instructing he has done in them, but I know that he has.  He has also instructed in other retractibles and twins.  He is not a one trick pony.

The things to consider are:

1.  How much Mooney transition training experience does my instructor have?

2.   How much more does the Mooney guru know than my local Mooney owner and experienced instructor.  This can be difficult to determine.

3.  How do I manage getting the transition training at an airport 300NM away from home?

I do realize that the Mooney guru would be better.   I do know that flying a C140 is different than flying a Mooney.  I do believe that if you know the quirks of the Mooney, it will be easier to deal with on the ground than a taildragger of most any description.  That does not mean that I believe that a taildragger pilot is better than a Mooney pilot.  I do believe that having tailwheel time helps prepare you for taking on other aviation challenges and the insurance actuaries obviously believe that too.  The Mooney guru instructor I talked to agreed that I am going about it the right way by building time, including tailwheel time, as I have before transitioning to the Mooney.

I most likely will find a way to stay in Kerrville and fly with the guru.

It is all about the logistics of getting there for the training, having weather for the training and training enough to fly the plane home safely.

[MBDiagMan]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

I think the answer is "It depends." I took my check-ride for my PPL at 46.7 hours and bought my Mooney at 60.6 hours total time. My insurance required 10 dual and then 5 solo before carrying passengers. I was not comfortable with it at 5 hours dual, but by the time we were at 7-8 hours I was feeling very good about it.

I don't think they are tricky to fly, they just don't like to slow down. I think I still slow down sooner than I need to before entering the pattern but that's because I am still getting used to how long I really need to slow it down (I'd rather be at pattern speed before getting to the pattern than trying to slow it down as I enter the pattern). However the more time I spend in it the better feel I get for the speed control.

Just don't try to land with too much speed. I did that once, bounced twice, and went around. The next one I was much more careful on my speed and it was better.

Do the 5 hours that are required and if you still don't feel comfortable do a few more hours with your CFI until you do feel comfortable.

My current instructor also told me that it is hard to get them slowed down.

[carusoam]

MAPA is based in Kerville.

Mapa keeps a list of Mooney specific CFIs.

There is a monthly Mooney emag around here that advertises Mooney CFIs.

Pick one that has been used by some other mooney pilot and get a review.

The CFI that I used,  worked for the Mooney factory in Kerville working with their new owners.

1) He knew Mooney's really well.

2) If he didn't, he knew where to get the answer at the factory.

3) He knew every device in the panel as well.

4) He was a professional trainer.

5) The delivery flight was halfway across the country... we got stuck due to dual runway closings one night.  The flight included some real IFR flying in real IMC.  Got some good lessons about my plane.

6) getting a different plane comes with some risks.  Losing One's way in IMC while flying is a tough way to start. Ice and thunderstorms can be part of that flight. A lot of new to you kind of issues will arise.

7) a good CFI will let you make all the decisions up to a point.  It is team work to get where you want to be.

Want a name and number?  

Best regards,

-a-

Edited February 1, 2017 by carusoam

[cnoe]

You can certainly gain a lot of info very efficiently from a Mooney specific CFI, but don't enter into this being afraid of the "quirky" Mooney. You can smoothly land a C or F or J or R etc. at 90 knots on an appropriate length runway; it's done all the time. Just never, ever, force the plane to the ground. Being on the commonly-prescribed speed (for model and weight) makes it even easier. I would absolutely seek a specialist if transitioning into a long-body though. Even moving from a short-body to medium-body requires a bit more technique. 10 hours in type seemed about right to me. YMMV.


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[carusoam]

There is also a thread around here for the various times required by insurance.

10 hours dual and ten solo prior to carrying passengers seemed like normal numbers.  The insurance guys use statistics to separate pilots from low time dangers...

Get the most out of these sessions as you can.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited February 1, 2017 by carusoam

[KSMooniac]

My transition 22 years ago in a flying club F model was 10 hours dual, and I thought that was appropriate since most of us were newish pilots coming out of 152 & 172 flying. I used some of the time for instrument instruction, which was very beneficial. My Mooney-savvy CFII (longtime owner too) had me do all that usual airwork, simulated cross country to learn descent and speed management, and had me put 2 friends in back to feel what the extra weight and aft cg did to the performance.

From your posts I think you've got the right attitude, and your CFI will probably be just fine if he's owned Mooneys in the past. Speed control and working the gear are the most important things to learn at first...but at the end of the day it is still just an airplane and you'll learn how to make her do what you want. Enjoy!

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[MBDiagMan]

Up early this morning!  I want to thank all my new friends here for all the valuable information and comment both in the clear and private message.  You are obviously a great group of folks and your help and patience is greatly appreciated!

By forcing it onto the runway, do you mean pitching up and losing air speed and making the nose want to come up OR do you mean nosing it over to bring it down making it touch with MORE air speed?  Which of these is what you guys are calling "forcing it onto the runway?"

I am trying to figure out the logistics of spending time in Kerrville before coming home.  The Mooney guru said that two days of instruction will probably do it. He thinks and charges by the day, not by the hour.  I am trying to figure out a way to maximize the training day effectiveness.  It might be that training there until I can fly it home solo will be better than having him fly home with me.  If I plan on training until I can fly home, the pressure will be on.  I don't want to get stuck there waiting on weather and I don't  want to head home before I am fully ready.

 

[Marauder]

Up early this morning!  I want to thank all my new friends here for all the valuable information and comment both in the clear and private message.  You are obviously a great group of folks and your help and patience is greatly appreciated!
By forcing it onto the runway, do you mean pitching up and losing air speed and making the nose want to come up OR do you mean nosing it over to bring it down making it touch with MORE air speed?  Which of these is what you guys are calling "forcing it onto the runway?"
I am trying to figure out the logistics of spending time in Kerrville before coming home.  The Mooney guru said that two days of instruction will probably do it. He thinks and charges by the day, not by the hour.  I am trying to figure out a way to maximize the training day effectiveness.  It might be that training there until I can fly it home solo will be better than having him fly home with me.  If I plan on training until I can fly home, the pressure will be on.  I don't want to get stuck there waiting on weather and I don't  want to head home before I am fully ready.
 

"Forcing it on" refers to landing the airplane too fast and letting the nose touchdown. It will result in a porpoise that will get worse the second time it porpoises and if you don't go around, most likely will result in a prop strike.

Nailing the speed on final (70 KIAS / 80 MPH) and if it floats resisting the urge to drop the nose wheel will prevent it. Your instructor should show you the proper speeds for landing. They may differ a little for landing weight and for gusty winds.

The plane will fly like other single engines, only faster. If you have a lot of time in Cessnas and Pipers, you feel a little behind the plane for a bit. Just work with the instructor on things that don't feel comfortable and you'll be fine.


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[mpg]

1 hour ago, MBDiagMan said:

By forcing it onto the runway, do you mean pitching up and losing air speed and making the nose want to come up OR,,

do you mean nosing it over to bring it down making it touch with MORE air speed?  

......Heavy..Sigh.........

minimum speed..  very important in mooney!

cross the numbers at 1.2 times the stall speed for your weight and configuration.

reduce power,,  hold it just off the run way,, steady...  let the last of the float dissipate,,

you will be nose high but not stalled,, let the mains touch,, hold the nose wheel just off the ground,,

let it down,, slowly,,,  keep the yoke back, the nose light!   power idle....

 

never land too fast!!!!   you will have to land nose first,,,,  NEVER do that!!!

the mooney will automatically porpoise,,  3 touches and you get to land,, with a prop strike!!!  

[mooniac15u]

2 hours ago, mpg said:

......Heavy..Sigh.........

minimum speed..  very important in mooney!

cross the numbers at 1.2 times the stall speed for your weight and configuration.

reduce power,,  hold it just off the run way,, steady...  let the last of the float dissipate,,

you will be nose high but not stalled,, let the mains touch,, hold the nose wheel just off the ground,,

let it down,, slowly,,,  keep the yoke back, the nose light!   power idle....

 

never land too fast!!!!   you will have to land nose first,,,,  NEVER do that!!!

the mooney will automatically porpoise,,  3 touches and you get to land,, with a prop strike!!!  

I'm a little confused.  Your profile says you don't own a Mooney yet you are giving advice on landing one.  Do you rent a Mooney?

[Hank]

In my C, i come "over the fence" at 75 mph minus 5 mph for every 300 lbs below gross I am for that landing. Full fuel is also 300 lb, so easy to estimate. 

While transitioning, start slowing 3-5 nm out, so you can be at or near pattern speed with Takeoff Flaps down when you enter downwind. After mastering this, and figuring out how to lose speed in a predictable manner, move a little closer.

My insurance required 15 dual with 5 IMC, since I had 62 total hours. 

ALWAYS FLY THE NUMBERS IN THE PERFORMANCE CHART! NEVER, NEVER TRY TO LAND FAST. STALL HORN BUZZING MAKES THE BEST LANDINGS. If the end of the runway is getting close and you're still floating, go around and try again, paying better attention to your airspeed. 

Stay in touch here. Fly safe, and have fun!!

[mpg]

15 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

I'm a little confused.  Your profile says you don't own a Mooney yet you are giving advice on landing one.  Do you rent a Mooney?

Never landed a Mooney,,,  havent flown since 1989...

I have been learning a lot reading here from the best master Mooney pilots around..

Ive never landed a Mooney,,,,   but I Know how to!

 

Did you find my advice to be,,, or not to be,,, accurate?

 

[mooniac15u]

1 minute ago, mpg said:

Never landed a Mooney,,,  havent flown since 1989...

I have been learning a lot reading here from the best master Mooney pilots around..

Ive never landed a Mooney,,,,   but I Know how to!

 

Did you find my advice to be,,, or not to be,,, accurate?

 

I found your " ......Heavy..Sigh......... " to be a bit condescending to a new owner asking for advice.

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks for the explanations.  Ignoring the specific speeds for a moment, and oversimplifying, what you are describing is three pointing a taildragger.

[gsxrpilot]

I was out riding right seat in an E model with someone on this board the other day.  The first landing of the day, he bounced it twice but was able to save the landing. He thought the reason was he was landing too "flat". My suggestion to him at the next airport was to...

1. close the throttle once over the numbers or once the runway is made.
2. don't let it land, but don't add power.

That landing and subsequent landing have all be squeakers...  It's really not difficult.

Of course if you're too fast as you come over the numbers, you're gonna eat up a lot of runway.

 

[3914N]

gsxr has it right. 

Landing technique can easily be talked to death, leaving people confused. 

Much better to just go out with a good mooney instructor and do it a few times. Then you will understand exactly what everyone here is doing their best to describe.

The important takeaway is this: landing a mooney is not hard, it just has a little less room for error than a Cessna. 

Don't worry about it too much. You will pick it up quickly.