To IFR or Not IFR - that is the question.

[gsengle]

Yeah except rationalization is an even more powerful human instinct, and if your job is slowly endangered as you sit stuck at an airport 750 miles from home, the rationalization gears of it's not that bad overcome most mere mortals if it's close to questionable! And heaven forbid again the real have to get there scenario does appear....


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[gsengle]

Ok. I guess those of us flying VFR cross country safely without instrument ratings for a quarter century are lucky to be alive. As was said earlier in this thread, and to quote Dirty Harry, a man has got to know his limitations. That applies equally to us all and those who fail to learn theirs don't last very long in aviation. 

 

That's a little sullen don't ya think? We just think you might have been even a little bit safer on that set of flights with even more training and capability. No one said unsafe or I missed it...

 

If you don't want it don't do it!

 

 

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[carusoam]

Speaking of additional, yet not required training...

Does wild horse racing provide any driver training, track time or anything like that?

That would make a pretty nice weekend trip.

I think Wildhorse Jim may have mentioned a Factory Five GT car back some time ago...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 9, 2017 by carusoam

[Wildhorsesracing]

We'll be at Road Atlanta next weekend 3/18-3/19 - come on down and I'll get you a ride with one of our instructors.

[carusoam]

That will have to go in my long term plan!

Best regards,

-a-

[Moonbat]

One can make a lot of lists and compile a lot of justifications for general aviation, but it all all ends up sounding like rationalization to do something we all like to do anyway - i.e., fly airplanes. Here's my suggestion to you about getting an IFR endorsement: I do (vaguely) remember my first solo flight, but, I vividly (and excitedly) remember the very first time I climbed up through a cloud layer to the stunning sunlit blue sky above - all by myself! That was a "moment" I'll never forget. For me, it was exhilarating way beyond my first solo experience. All the rest is just "stuff"... 

[pinerunner]

I'm in a situation much like you describe and have been working on my IFR for a couple years. In part I started just because I wanted to get back in training and get one more rating. I like learning about new things in aviation and I've been having fun working on the IFR. I bought my old M20E to be an instrument trainer and wanted a complex plane, not just a loaded C172 and I've been happy with it. I'll admit that it tempts me to buy a bunch of very expensive upgrades but its possible to hold back on that urge and just go IFR light on the plane and still get some value over VFR only.

I've had some days when I made a VFR flight of a hundred miles or so stuck scud-running just above pattern altitude under a thin layer of cumulous clouds that I could have slipped up between and just barely broke the clearance of clouds rule for VFR. An IFR clearance to VFR on top would have been just the ticket and wouldn't have strained the skills of a newly minted IFR pilot. 

The IFR training makes you learn more precisely what to expect from your plane and how to manage your time. I had no idea how much I waste putzing around. Also learning how to talk more efficiently to ATC and learning more about how to use all the resources is worth the trouble.

Just keeping it right side up on instruments isn't a big deal. Most of us learn to do that OK when getting our private ticket. I remember thinking IFR didn't seem so tough back then. It's when you try to put it all together in an environment where you'll have to coordinate with others and not get burned that you realize how much there is to learn about aviation. Challenging and fun go together in my book.

I'm having fun going after my IFR. I expect to take my check ride in a couple of months or so.

Edited March 9, 2017 by pinerunner
typos

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, pinerunner said:

I'm in a situation much like you describe and have been working on my IFR for a couple years. In part I started just because I wanted to get back in training and get one more rating. I like learning about new things in aviation and I've been having fun working on the IFR. I bought my old M20E with to be an instrument trainer and wanted a complex plane, not just a loaded C172 and I've been happy with it. I'll admit that it temps me to buy a bunch of very expensive upgrades but its possible to hold back on that urge and just go IFR light on the plane and still get some value over VFR only.

I've had some days when I made a VFR flight of a hundred miles or so stuck scud-running just above pattern altitude under a thin layer of cumulous clouds that I could have slipped up between and just barely broke the clearance of clouds rule for VFR. An IFR clearance to VFR on top would have been just the ticket and wouldn't have strained the skills of a newly minted IFR pilot. 

The IFR training makes you learn more precisely what to expect from your plane and how to manage your time. I had no idea how much I waste putzing around. Also learning how to talk more efficiently to ATC and learning more about how to use all the resources is worth the trouble.

Just keeping it right side up on instruments isn't a big deal. Most of us learn to do that OK when getting our private ticket. I remember thinking IFR didn't seem so tough back then. It's when you try to put it all together in an environment where you'll have to coordinate with others and not get burned that you realize how much there is to learn about aviation. Challenging and fun go together in my book.

I'm having fun going after my IFR. I expect to take my check ride in a couple of months or so.

I would never tell someone they should or should not get their instrument rating.  

If anyone ever wondered what the benefits were, I would refer them to this post.  Nicely written and explained, pinerunner!

[Danb]

Moonbat, I have similar thoughts but in reverse, my remembrance was going into Pinehurst NC to play golf with a non pilot next to me, skimming the inside of the clouds, back then I was taught to dive and drive, asking the dude you see the ground yet, after a few time's I'm ready to go missed I see the airport environment and tree topes, what a beautiful sight, 30+ yrs and I still see Southern Pines in my thoughts,what a wonderful day that was realizing the great potential of our machines. A sight I'll never hate seeing the ground at the end of a tough day, flight etc.

 

[midlifeflyer]

8 minutes ago, Danb said:

Moonbat, I have similar thoughts but in reverse, my remembrance was going into Pinehurst NC to play golf with a non pilot next to me, skimming the inside of the clouds, back then I was taught to dive and drive, asking the dude you see the ground yet, after a few time's I'm ready to go missed I see the airport environment and tree topes, what a beautiful sight, 30+ yrs and I still see Southern Pines in my thoughts,what a wonderful day that was realizing the great potential of our machines. A sight I'll never hate seeing the ground at the end of a tough day, flight etc.

 

We do such a wonderful thing, flying. VFR or IFR, we can all recount some fantastic stuff that made our hearts sing.

Threads that devolve into "you are not a [safe | real | whatever] real pilot unless..." are silly nonsense.

[Danb]

2 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

We do such a wonderful thing, flying. VFR or IFR, we can all recount some fantastic stuff that made our hearts sing.

Threads that devolve into "you are not a [safe | real | whatever] real pilot unless..." are silly nonsense.

I couldn't agree more, I'm not saying one is better than the other, merely referencing the beauty of flight, like  a star filled moonlit evening. The marvel we get to witness is wonderful so many out there don't get to see the gift of flight that we do.

[thinwing]

It's all about the mission .For me ,the IR became a reliable way to avoid 5/6 HR drives to escape Central Valley heat in the summer.All the great 3 day weekend getaways in coastal calf/ore/wash during the summer months were typically 600 Ovc half the time.I originally got the IR cause I was tired of losing out on expensive hotel reservations!Tired of sweating out fog banks rolling in on Sunday or scrambling out to airport for an emergency takeoff to get home for work on Monday.I have never been in a situation where I didn't need to be somewhere sometime.With the places I've been and as long as I've been flying I've been dead many times over!

[bonal]

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

It's all about the mission .For me ,the IR became a reliable way to avoid 5/6 HR drives to escape Central Valley heat in the summer.All the great 3 day weekend getaways in coastal calf/ore/wash during the summer months were typically 600 Ovc half the time.I originally got the IR cause I was tired of losing out on expensive hotel reservations!Tired of sweating out fog banks rolling in on Sunday or scrambling out to airport for an emergency takeoff to get home for work on Monday.I have never been in a situation where I didn't need to be somewhere sometime.With the places I've been and as long as I've been flying I've been dead many times over!

Round and round we go. We live in just as hot Lake co and have flown to many a costal or Sierra destination. as I indicated only had one trip where I could not get out and I know the rental car was way cheaper and simpler than an IFR ticket its all relative. I also dont think you would be dead because you would not have flown I doubt your go no go decision would be that dumb that it would have ended up killing you.  An occasional 5/6hr drive cant be that big of a deal or are we so spoiled that getting in a car leaves us some how soiled.

[gsengle]

The last time I got stuck VFR if I couldn't have waited it would have been a 15 hour drive in a rental car home, not 5-6. And now I have a stranded plane. Do I drive the rental back the next weekend? Just sayin'


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[bonal]

When we choose to travel there is always the chance of delays and not always caused by weather.  Even the airlines have thousands of cancelled flights. I know that an instrument rating lowers the chance of being stranded. What would you do if you looked in your cowling and saw a cracked cylinder and you had to get somewhere what then. All I'm saying is for me personally being a lowly VFR pilot has not been a problem and with weather forecast being much more accurate than years past I have only had one time that IFR would have helped but even then it would have made no difference since my airplane was not instrument capable. Of course you would not hold the rating if your plane was not certified. And I'm certainly not advocating that all you guys return to VFR only flying. The original post was asking the question of the value of an instrument rating and all of you have made very valid points I'm simply taking the other side of the discussion and saying one can manage fine without it.

[bonal]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

The last time I got stuck VFR if I couldn't have waited it would have been a 15 hour drive in a rental car home, not 5-6. And now I have a stranded plane. Do I drive the rental back the next weekend? Just sayin'


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Yes that's what you do we had to drive 8 hours home and yes I had to drive back to bring our plane home no big deal life went on.

[gsengle]

Of course life went on. But in those 16 hours, you'd be half way done with the rating


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[HRM]

On 1/17/2017 at 10:30 PM, Wildhorsesracing said:

I have heard horror stories of pilots who fly IFR infrequently (like I would) and end up spiralling in. 

So overrated. Shortly after I bought my E I flew to Florida (from Tejas). I stopped at Marianna (MAI) for fuel and a pee.

Probably hung around longer than I should have, got into the air and as I approached TLH the weather kept getting worse. Before you know it, I was deep in soup, first time in my life. The next thing you know, I see the hands on my gauges spinning and I thought, "Damn, I'm in the death spiral! So this is what it looks like."

After being transfixed by the scenario for a moment, I then thought, "Damn, I'm only at 3,000' or so, sprialing down into middle-of-nowhere Florida, with all those damn TOWERS everywhere!" So then by some miracle I get out of the spiral (I channelled my grizzled old CFI from 1986, he'd be so proud--or pissed) and pull back and in a moment I am 'on top'. Just beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

So, then I call TLH and they say it just gets worse and they are IFR anyway. They suggest I turn around and try to get back to MAI, which I do. Now I see HUGE thunderclouds off to my right, with little flashes of lightning inside. Mesmerizing. They seemed to beckon me to fly closer for a better look, I resisted.

Now it is getting dark and finally I am into patchy clouds and can see the ground every so often. As I approach MAI I can't see the airport and start flipping through my docs to find out how to turn the lights on. THERE ARE NO LIGHTS! So now I get a bit panicked and TLH suggests Quincy. I fly there and like magic the lights come on with the radio. I do the dodge clouds landing and make it in.

This is why my wife won't fly with me. I digress, IFR cert is first on my list to finish at retirement. Flying in clouds is too much fun to pass up.

[bonal]

So I guess the conclusion one must make is that having an instrument rating means I will never be delayed and I will be incapable of having an accident related to weather conditions and loss of control. I wonder how much dollars it would take to get my Mooney IFR certified I guess that would be the first step. 

This thread has really bummed me out.

[kortopates]

30 minutes ago, bonal said:

So I guess the conclusion one must make is that having an instrument rating means I will never be delayed and I will be incapable of having an accident related to weather conditions and loss of control. I wonder how much dollars it would take to get my Mooney IFR certified I guess that would be the first step. 

This thread has really bummed me out.

I continued to be delayed frequently. But usually the delay is much shorter than prior to being instrument capable and flying a well outfitted aircraft. But even as a IFR pilot I still have you beaten on delays by a long shot. My biggest delay comes from one winter when I was down in Monterrey Mexico and I wanted to head home but south Texas was having a major ice storm that went on for weeks. I am not FIKI and  couldn't see how to get into Texas where I was pretty constrained with my first airport of landing for customs. Since to my west, I had a large mountain range with no weather info my only way around the weather was to go south before I could west and back up to CA. But I just needed to get back to work at this point we took a commercial flight home. The drive would have been 2-3 long days. It wasn't till a couple weeks later the ice storms left and we spent a weekend to fly back to Monterrey commercially, and fly our Mooney home. Most other delays have been hour or two waiting for ceilings to come high enough to allow for a return landing versus waiting most of the day which often would have likely cancelled the flight when originating from home or added needless time to our trip. With out a doubt, it has greatly enhanced our dispatch-ability. 

But as for safety the many prior post quoting the accident stats speak for themselves and we all agree for the most part those are avoidable with better ADM.

So there is no reason to be bummed. I know many VFR only pilots that are very safe pilots. Do I believe they could be better pilots if they were IFR trained? In many respect yes, but not in all ways. For the record, I feel a lot of instrument pilots are a bit short on aerodynamics and stall/spin training concepts; even CFI's sadly. But if I was going to pick on any one sector of the pilot community I would hazard that the instrument rated pilot that has not been current for years is the more likely pilot to get into wx related accident from being overly confident in their abilities. 

[Andy95W]

You'll probably need an AOA indicator to prevent the loss of control...

[carusoam]

Tough questions you can only answer for yourself...

I started my IR training in a well worn M20C. It had one VOR and ILS combination. A second nav radio would need to be added for good use...  many waypoints are intersections on a IFR chart.  'Requiring' two nav radios to identify it...

Today I would have added a used 430W just because it's navigation strength is so superb.

If you have these things already, consider taking a CFII for a fight or two.  An instrument flight in VMC to demonstrate that your stuff works.  Then repeat the flight in light imc....

If you have two nav coms that are working already you would need one other thing... pitot/static and altimeter check.  That costs a few tenths of an AMU...

When you're done, report back with yay, nay, or nowayinhell....

My M20C was so worn, it didn't make sense to try and update it.  It was sold, and I took a year off from flying...  I spent my annual flying budget on the IR.

Rejuvenated, having the IR in hand, went looking for a newer Mooney that was better prepared for traveling.

My family/relatives do not really like flying.  They watch the clock and the weather to make sure I have enough cushion in the schedule.  Having the IR is a bit helpful that you can leave when the weather isn't perfect VMC.  If the government thinks I am rated to fly in cloudy weather, than they can believe it too...

Clouds at 5k' to these people look like a low ceilings... I got a 98% on my IR written exam to have a piece of paper worth showing to them.

The closest thing I have done to IFR flying this year was sit in the right seat while somebody else Flew a few approaches in their Mooney.

Try that too...  the right seater is responsible to look out the window.  Recognize traffic and terrain.  Typical responsibility of a VFR pilot.

Bring your iPad along, but know that it is difficult to be looking for traffic and at the iPad at the same time.

PP thoughts only.  My first IR flights were pure elation.  Adding VMC to the mix was really sweet. Doing this with a modern Mooney and taking the kids to WDW.... 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 10, 2017 by carusoam

[Marcopolo]

No need to go round and round, its reallty quite simple.

1) if you're a good, safe VFR pilot you'll probably be a good, safe IFR pilot.  We all know what the other option looks like, The instrument rating does not make a good pilot out of a bad one.

2) If you've ever wished you had the intrument rating to get to or into a destination when the weather was IFR doable and you were VFR only rated, or you were already in the air and the IR would let you descend where you wanted to (this is the situation that promted me to start the training).

Then figure out if equiping the plane (if needed) taking the time and paying for the training is all worth the 1 or 2 or more situations you've been in where the IR might help and either sell yourself on it or don't.

To the OP, I don't think there are any surprises here.  if you were looking for an epiphany on why to get the rating, unfortunately you'll probably have to fly into it on your own, I did.  

I mean no offense to either side of the argument, just my 3 cents.  Currently in the middle of IFR training and I know why I am doing it, but my reason may not drive the argument for some one else.

 

Ron

 

[Skates97]

12 hours ago, HRM said:

Flying in clouds is too much fun to pass up.

The ability to pop up through the marine layer or down through it along the coast out here is one reason I am considering going after my IR somewhere here in the next year or two. The other is to be able to skim along the tops of the clouds. My dad used to talk about when they would be flying T-38's and trying to keep one wingtip in the clouds just for fun.

 

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

The closest thing I have done to IFR flying this year was sit in the right seat while somebody else Flew a few approaches in their Mooney.

Try that too...  the right seater is responsible to look out the window.  Recognize traffic and terrain.  Typical responsibility of a VFR pilot.

Bring your iPad along, but know that it is difficult to be looking for traffic and at the iPad at the same time.

 

I did this a little while back with @MHemperly and thoroughly enjoyed it. My only other experience with Instrument Flying was the required time fro my PPL. Actually watching someone work the radios, the communication with ATC (I do it all the time with flight following but it is not the same), navigate and fly all the approaches/holds was impressive and a lot of fun. I highly recommend it.

2 hours ago, Marcopolo said:

1) if you're a good, safe VFR pilot you'll probably be a good, safe IFR pilot.  We all know what the other option looks like, The instrument rating does not make a good pilot out of a bad one.

This I think sums it all up. When I was taking my check-ride the DPE asked me if I had plans to get my IFR. I told him maybe in a year or two, along with the typical "everyone says it makes you a better pilot" line. His response was "not necessarily." If you are a safe pilot that knows yours and your planes limitations and makes good decisions, you will be a safe pilot. On the other hand if you take risks and make poor decisions getting your IFR won't change that, just give you more opportunities to get into trouble...

So maybe I'll pursue an Instrument rating, maybe not. Right now I am having a blast as just a VFR pilot, and will continue to do so. 

[DonMuncy]

I mostly agree, but disagree to an extent. If you are a "bad" pilot, instrument training will make you a less bad pilot. Yes, you have the risk that it may encourage you to get into trouble. But I think that any time spent with an instructor, especially doing new things, is helpful.

2 hours ago, Marcopolo said:

If you're a good, safe VFR pilot you'll probably be a good, safe IFR pilot.  We all know what the other option looks like, The instrument rating does not make a good pilot out of a bad one.