Still in Denial

[DMJones]

41 minutes ago, Danb said:

Dave the next thing you will tell us is that your qualified!

Only qualified to learn.

And this happened yesterday, near my home:

http://www.ajc.com/news/local/update-small-plane-lost-power-before-crash-cobb-airport/aXaxlaEsdkxaHywkdodaYJ/

I'd love to hear what happened, from the pilot.

[kelty]

16 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

1) Go re-read the original post and look at the pictures. He wasn't in the pattern. He was 5 miles out and his gear was up. 

2) I have done nothing but defend him against the dentist's claims so I think your ire is misdirected. 

3) Please re-read my last post. It and my calculations were not critical of his actions in any way. In fact I said he didn't have time to troubleshoot.  

If you want to pick a fight you should find someone else to fight with. 

If I were to guess, it was probably about a minute from when the engine quite to when we hit the trees.  I did originally have the gear down, but raised them right away when I realized that we were just a glider.

[Alan Fox]

23 minutes ago, kelty said:

If I were to guess, it was probably about a minute from when the engine quite to when we hit the trees.  I did originally have the gear down, but raised them right away when I realized that we were just a glider.

I figured you were in a landing config , I usually have the gear down , the prop forward , and the approach flaps down about 8 miles out , full flaps about 3 miles out..... I'm a bit of a wuss though , at 5 miles , I am still over 2000 feet agl...

[gsengle]

Now that's a good discussion. I don't go to full landing config until like midfield downwind, with field effectively made... for just this reason.


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[Alan Fox]

56 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

@Alan Fox @PTK  gentlemen we saw the other day another thread which turned extremely nasty.  Can we please try not to turn Mooneyspace into PilotsofAmerica.  While you are slagging each other, the rest of us have to watch and listen, which can be a tad umm irritating.  

What i personally love about MS is that fact that everyone gets along even if we disagree, name calling is not right, and is a playground and politicians antic is it not?  

I know that Peter loves analog gauges and marauder loves glass. Neither will convince the other that they are right but they just get along. Can we not do the same on this?   Me for instance will never intentionally run a tank dry and gsxrpilot is saying otherwise. We will agree to disagree etc.  

You have both been lovely to me and helped me immensely and I value your contribution to everything but personal attacks I don't believe belong on MS.  

Love you both

Andrew

I think in this case , it wont get to that , Neither myself or Peter care what the other says or thinks....Just mindless entertainment....

 

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Now that's a good discussion. I don't go to full landing config until like midfield downwind, with field effectively made... for just this reason.


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Me, too. Five miles out I'm usually still descending around 160 mph or so. I like to be at TPA by 3 miles out so I can level off and bleed speed to enter downwind 90-100 mph and drop Takeoff flaps. Gear goes down abeam my intended point of landing, and starts my descent towards the runway. This is all from the Owners Manual.

What is the rationale for setting up landing configuration 5-8 miles from the field??? I've never heard of doing that.

[gsengle]

That's another thing, the FAA doesn't want you descending into the pattern you should be at TPA just before entering so you don't descend on top of someone...


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[201er]

Just now, Hyett6420 said:

Now this is definitely a good discussion.  I have always wondered at what point people did what on an instrument approach. Note NOT a VFR approach. 

So me, I put the wheels down and first flaps  at 5 miles or FAF whichever comes first.  Having slowed to 130 knots at IAF.  BUMPFC checks are complete between IAF and FAF. 

I would be interested to know what others do and especially what the Commerical boys rules are. 

At the FAF IFR, abeam numbers on downwind VFR. I thought this was standard?

[gsengle]

Yes in IMC down at FAF, and flaps too, or I'll never get back to extension speed :-o


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[midlifeflyer]

18 minutes ago, 201er said:

At the FAF IFR, abeam numbers on downwind VFR. I thought this was standard?

IFR, gear down and approach flaps (if used) at the FAF/GSI is indeed pretty standard.

VFR, abeam the numbers downwind, not so much. After all, who says you are going to have a downwind? I've seen a pretty wide variety of good procedures, the most important factor to me being procedural consistency.

[201er]

26 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Geez, Alan. Gear and approach flaps down and prop full forward 8 miles out?  To each his or her own and of course that is a very safe approach, but it is hardly an efficient way to fly.  I'm typically still all cleaned up and burning 6.5 GPH LOP when I enter the pattern.

All the time spent with gear down is wasting fuel. So I'd rather power back early and enjoy the high speed descent and efficiency and then put the gear down in the pattern. Plus it takes some time to slow down to gear speed anyway!

IFR mixture/prop forward at FAF

VFR mixture/prop on base

Edited January 7, 2017 by 201er

[Guitarmaster]

Now this is definitely a good discussion.  I have always wondered at what point people did what on an instrument approach. Note NOT a VFR approach. 

So me, I put the wheels down and first flaps  at 5 miles or FAF whichever comes first.  Having slowed to 130 knots at IAF.  BUMPFC checks are complete between IAF and FAF. 

I would be interested to know what others do and especially what the Commerical boys rules are. 

Stabilized by 1000 AGL IFR and by 500 VFR. Depending on what particular jet is following me.

Stabilized by 1000 in the airliner always.

Stabilized = Target speed, on GS, landing config.

Thanks to the OP for having the balls to share this! Everyone who has never made a mistake in an airplane, raise your hand.... crickets.

When you rat on yourself after making a mistake, it makes us all safer. The airlines have done it for years with the ASAP program.

Still in search of the perfect flight......

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[Marauder]

@Alan Fox @PTK  gentlemen we saw the other day another thread which turned extremely nasty.  Can we please try not to turn Mooneyspace into PilotsofAmerica.  While you are slagging each other, the rest of us have to watch and listen, which can be a tad umm irritating.  
What i personally love about MS is that fact that everyone gets along even if we disagree, name calling is not right, and is a playground and politicians antic is it not?  
I know that Peter loves analog gauges and marauder loves glass. Neither will convince the other that they are right but they just get along. Can we not do the same on this?   Me for instance will never intentionally run a tank dry and gsxrpilot is saying otherwise. We will agree to disagree etc.  
You have both been lovely to me and helped me immensely and I value your contribution to everything but personal attacks I don't believe belong on MS.  
Love you both
Andrew

Andrew -- there is a backdrop to these guys. First of all they know each, secondly, I believe they are based at the same airport and finally they are both from Jersey -- need I say more?!

I lived in Jersey for a number of years. It is the only state where someone yelling at you can be a compliment. These boys are just doing a bit of Jersey bantering.


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[Alan Fox]

5 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Geez, Alan. Gear and approach flaps down and prop full forward 8 miles out?  To each his or her own and of course that is a very safe approach, but it is hardly an efficient way to fly.  I'm typically still all cleaned up and burning 6.5 GPH LOP when I enter the pattern.

Think of it this way , Because I am slow and dirty , I can carry more altitude further in ( easier to descend fast dirty)  I am generally still above 2000 agl 8 out , more altitude = more glide .... Its a safety thing for me....  If you are really worried about burning an extra few pints of fuel , you need to find a new hobby ,    Search the threads here , 100 k airplane destroyed because fuel was cheaper elsewhere.......Yes I know , not a very popular statement , I'm not here to win a popularity contest .... Here to learn from others , help others , Break Peters balls......

Edited January 7, 2017 by Alan Fox

[gsengle]

Think of it this way , Because I am slow and dirty , I can carry more altitude further in ( easier to descend fast dirty)  I am generally still above 2000 agl 8 out , more altitude = more glide .... Its a safety thing for me....  If you are really worried about burning an extra few pints of fuel , you need to find a new hobby ,    Search the threads here , 100 k airplane destroyed because fuel was cheaper elsewhere.......Yes I know , not a very popular statement , I'm not here to win a popularity contest .... Here to learn from others , help others , Break Peters balls......

Still doesn't make sense to me, you can descend clean and fast and then drop gear as you level off while entering the pattern.


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[Smiles201]

Again, really appreciate this topic and the courage to share, there are all too many fuel exhaustion and fuel starvation accidents. I ask the following question out of respect and some ignorance, just to spark some thought perhaps, but I wonder if military aviation may have contributed some possible feeling of complacency.   Isn't someone else fueling the plane for the pilot? Isn't there a premium placed on having just enough fuel for a mission? And going "bingo fuel" more so than in civilian aviation. Many years ago there were two airforce senior officers who rented a small plane and ran out of fuel a few minutes from their destination. This was in New Mexico. Of course fuel accidents happen to everyone, no one is immune from mistakes, and I am not suggesting that military pilots do this more frequently. In fact, they probably make fewer such errors, just wondering if there are other links in the accident chain in this situation. Human factors. We all have them. Some of us, myself included, are overly fearful about fuel and always carry way too much.

[Alan Fox]

6 minutes ago, Smiles201 said:

Again, really appreciate this topic and the courage to share, there are all too many fuel exhaustion and fuel starvation accidents. I ask the following question out of respect and some ignorance, just to spark some thought perhaps, but I wonder if military aviation may have contributed some possible feeling of complacency.   Isn't someone else fueling the plane for the pilot? Isn't there a premium placed on having just enough fuel for a mission? And going "bingo fuel" more so than in civilian aviation. Many years ago there were two airforce senior officers who rented a small plane and ran out of fuel a few minutes from their destination. This was in New Mexico. Of course fuel accidents happen to everyone, no one is immune from mistakes, and I am not suggesting that military pilots do this more frequently. In fact, they probably make fewer such errors, just wondering if there are other links in the accident chain in this situation. Human factors. We all have them. Some of us, myself included, are more fearful about fuel and always carry way too much.

Explain how you can have too much fuel...

 

[gsengle]

Explain how you can have too much fuel...
 

Overweight and crash into trees at end of runway on takeoff. That's how you can have too much fuel. Easy to overload a plane like mine with 100gallon tanks.


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[gsengle]

Also on the long body Mooneys there is a max landing weight which requires you to burn off fuel to land. Also they are pretty sure that leaving a lot of fuel in the tanks helps to prematurely flatten our landing gear doughnuts in the heavy long bodies.


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[carusoam]

Thoughts for Miles...

 

What makes a difference is...

 

1) the accuracy of One's fuel gauges... 

 - analog vs digital fuel floats

 - analog vs digital read-outs

 - spare indicators specific to partial filling 

 - all calibrated and working properly

 

2) the ability to build and follow One's own procedures... each has it's own fuel burn rate

 - Start-up and taxi...

 - T/O and climb...

 - Cruise and leaning procedure...

 - Descent and traffic pattern...

 

3) The knowledge of fuel burn rates... and instruments...

 - Fuel flow indicator based on a paddle wheel inline to the engine.

 - Totalizer that keeps track of the fuel put in and all the fuel that has been burned.  Often requires manual update/reset at the start of a flight.

 - Digital fuel floats are capable of noticing a difference between fuel burned and fuel leaked out of the tank.

 

4) knowledge of proper reserves...

 - Legal issue for VFR and IFR flights

 - Realistic issue if flying in the wilderness, dark and crappy weather....

 

5) Know that crap happens...

 - The more you know the plane, the tighter and more accurate One's skills are.

 - There are going to be several links to a bad day.  Recognize them as they start breaking down.

 - crap happens faster after the first tank runs dry. All the Plan Bs have been used up...

 

6) Not having fuel available at the starting point of a trip...

 

7) Complacency...

 - Knowing everything about the plane, have all the equipment to track the fuel level and burn rate, and ignore it all due to being overly comfortable and forgetting, or just being human and something gets buy...

 

8) everyone knows how to accurately plan a flight

 - From basic PPL math.

 - Is there anything more that a Pro Pilot can know that wouldn't get translated down to a new pilot?

 - Is there anything a new pilot does that wouldn't be used when a Pro Pilot flies.

 

9) The thing that surprised me most when I got the opportunity to fly with other pilots... was their use of check lists.  As a young guy, I thought that was the old school way of teaching things and surely an experienced pilot didn't need those things after some time.

- My check lists are on a piece of paper, a copy is on my iPad, and the super critical ones are memorized.  Some people have better memory or technical skills and they turn the instrument panel and controls into a flow system, from left to right and top to bottom...

 

10) I have one advantage that the pro pilots don't have...

 - I fly only one plane. Fewer things to have to keep track of.

 

This is a list I put together over the following day.  

I have deep innate fears of running out of fuel, Not having enough power, Flying VFR into IMC, and running into thunderstorms while IFR in IMC... The usual PP list of stupid pilot tricks.

 

Adding to the discussion, knowing we are all human with ability to make some goofy pre-made mistakes.

Thanks for reading my PP thoughts,

-a-

[mccdeuce]

1 hour ago, Smiles201 said:

Again, really appreciate this topic and the courage to share, there are all too many fuel exhaustion and fuel starvation accidents. I ask the following question out of respect and some ignorance, just to spark some thought perhaps, but I wonder if military aviation may have contributed some possible feeling of complacency.   Isn't someone else fueling the plane for the pilot? Isn't there a premium placed on having just enough fuel for a mission? And going "bingo fuel" more so than in civilian aviation. Many years ago there were two airforce senior officers who rented a small plane and ran out of fuel a few minutes from their destination. This was in New Mexico. Of course fuel accidents happen to everyone, no one is immune from mistakes, and I am not suggesting that military pilots do this more frequently. In fact, they probably make fewer such errors, just wondering if there are other links in the accident chain in this situation. Human factors. We all have them. Some of us, myself included, are overly fearful about fuel and always carry way too much.

I am a rotor head and not a jet guy so my experiences are probably a little different. 

Yes someone else fuels the aircraft for my first start, and I am sitting in the aircraft for any hot fuel evelotuons. We place a premium on fuel management and our taught to maximize and respect fuel req for mission accomplishment. Sometimes limiting angle of bank to ensure that I don't burn an excessive amount. Running out of fuel over water is just not acceptable. 

I appreciate the OP posting though - I have not yet drained my tanks completely and evaluated my usable fuel for my new to me M20J. I have landed with 7 a side and thought nothing of it. My low fuel levels also don't work (possibly due to bladder install) but this is now on my list of things to evaluate. 

[Rick Junkin]

10 hours ago, DMJones said:

Only qualified to learn.

And this happened yesterday, near my home:

http://www.ajc.com/news/local/update-small-plane-lost-power-before-crash-cobb-airport/aXaxlaEsdkxaHywkdodaYJ/

I'd love to hear what happened, from the pilot.

The CH2000 is my "other" airplane, planning to instruct in it when I retire in a few years. Please post more if you hear anything more on this one.

Cheers,

Rick

[Hector]

Thanks to the OP for the post. It's has resulted in a good discussion and certainly some things to think about. I am one of those that will occasionally take off from my home field and fly south for 20 miles to purchase fuel at $1 less a gallon. There have been a number of times when I have debated whether I had sufficient fuel to get there plus my one hour reserve. Although I always make sure my 10 gallon reserve is all in one tank I may have overtime grown too comfortable with this minimum fuel state. It is by reading threads like this that lessons are learned and behavior changed. One thing is for sure, you will never catch me being over critical of someone here posting about a mistake. We are all humans and shit happens! If we are brave enough we post it here in the hopes that our fellow airman can learn from it.


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[Guitarmaster]

Explain how you can have too much fuel...
 

If you are on fire.

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[Hedge]

I also run my tank dry on long cross country flights for the exact same reason.