Back-up Artificial Horizon?

[TWinter]

My shop has pretty well got my old gauges gutted out. All the vacuum gear has been removed. I went to pick up some of the old avionics they had removed. They asked if I have given thought to a back-up Artificial Horizon? I'm having the dual Aspens installed with the battery back-ups. They said they have had a few guys go with a separate back-up artificial horizon with it's own self contained battery (apparently good for about an hour in emergency). They are not swaying me either way. Just asking.. If for whatever reason the Aspens went dark I would have this as a back-up. I usually use IPad of sort with me so I would not totally be in the dark and of course it has AH. Just getting opinions of whether it is needed, cost est was about 2K +/-. The owner of the shop was not in today, only the AP, so as far as what manufacturer, model and exact cost I don't know yet. If I did go this route any particular manufacture or model over the other. Is it really needed? Constructive thoughts appreciated?

 

-Tom

[Bennett]

Several thoughts: Scandia EFIS, MidContinent LifeSaver backup electric AI with backup battery (Conventional AI presentation), Dynon D2 "portable EFIS" with optional "snap in" mounting, at least one other company states that their units can "legally" be plumbed into the pitot static system for a non-GPS based EFIS, and if your new panel allows for the use of Garmin's FlightStream 210, an iPad or iPad Mini running ForeFlight can present an EFIS view (especially nice in split view with SV.

I wonder if there will be announcements at Oshkosh about using Garmin's backup EFIS in certified aircraft, or if the EAA's STC for Dynon's EFIS will be expanded to Mooneys.

[Oldguy]

I have an older BFG Avionics GH3000 in my panel. No vacuum required and it came in handy when my AI decided it would lay down and take a nap (fortunately day VFR). While I have multiple iPads in the cockpit, I do like having the 3000 just to the right of my regular scan. My only concern about having to use one of the iPads in IMC would be the change of focal distance from iPad to panel and potential movement of the screen when turning, as mine are mounted on the yokes. If I were to consider making an i-device a backup, I would likely choose my phone and mount it on the panel as others here have done.

For me, the need for a backup gyro is directly related to the amount of IMC I encounter.

Lots of talk on MS about the Mid-Continent SAM and the Sandia Quattro, although I believe those fall outside of the $2K mark.

[FoxMike]

I put a Quattro 340 ( Sandia) in my Mooney last winter.  I have the original steam gauges and since the KI256 has 1700 on it I wanted some backup.  So far the Quattro works although there were some serious startup problems.  New software fixed the problem.  You can buy fancier glass backup that have heading and even navigation but you just paid for a reasonably reliable system that provides those features.  I will mention that I did a trip from Denver to Maine in a friends T-210 that had an Aspen.  It worked for about 2 hrs, then went intermittent for the rest of the trip.  All the vacuum gauges were installed so we kept going.  Problem was software but did not get it fixed until trip was over.   Some back up is a good idea and a requirement but a vacuum driven AH is plenty sufficient.

[LANCECASPER]

If you have a complete electrical failure you still have the battery backups in the Aspens, but if you have identical software versions in both Aspens and its a software issue you have no Attitude. In fact I don't think even 2 Aspens with battery backups meets the requirements. - not sure on that though.

An iPad or iPhone with Garmin Pilot paired with a GDL-39 3D sitting on a Garmin battery backup would be plenty of backup for me in this situation (or similar Foreflight/Stratus with battery). You are looking for a safe way to get back to VFR conditions. IMO you need the battery backup on the attitude source which is the GDL-393D or Stratus. 

I definitely wouldn't leave the vacuum pump in just for a backup vacuum AI. There are too many other more reliable solutions.

Just my opinion.

[rbridges]

10 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you have a complete electrical failure you still have the battery backups in the Aspens, but if you have identical software versions in both Aspens and its a software issue you have no Attitude. In fact I don't think even 2 Aspens with battery backups meets the requirements. - not sure on that though.

An iPad or iPhone with Garmin Pilot paired with a GDL-39 3D sitting on a Garmin battery backup would be plenty of backup for me in this situation (or similar Foreflight/Stratus with battery). You are looking for a safe way to get back to VFR conditions. IMO you need the battery backup on the attitude source which is the GDL-393D or Stratus. 

I definitely wouldn't leave the vacuum pump in just for a backup vacuum AI. There are too many other more reliable solutions.

Just my opinion.

IIRC, 2 aspens with battery backups is the requirement, but I'm not 100% sure. 

As to the OP's questions.  What are the odds that both Aspens go dark at the same time? 

[LANCECASPER]

Just now, rbridges said:

IIRC, 2 aspens with battery backups is the requirement, but I'm not 100% sure. 

As to the OP's questions.  What are the odds that both Aspens go dark at the same time? 

I am a huge Aspen fan and the odds are very little that they would both go dark at the same time because of power reasons, but if they both have the same software version if one goes the other is almost sure to follow.

[steingar]

Your iPad has an AI which works off the same principles as the Aspens if you're running Foreflight.  Might even use the same sensors for all I know.  Plenty to use in a pinch.

[KSMooniac]

My plane came with the MCI Lifesaver with battery backup and it has been trouble-free for 9 years, except for expensive battery replacement. Having said that, I'd wait until OSH to make a decision since there might be new products or at least discounts on existing options.

I too have a GDL 39 3D and a 496...their attitude indicators might really help in an emergency, but nothing beats having something on the panel within your normal scan IMO.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[TWinter]

Kind of what I was thinking. I have the IPad with Flightstream 210 and also have a Aera 796 I use for weather..According to the shop the is no legal requirement since I have the battery back-up on the Aspens. Just thought I would see what the jury thought. Less is more, but I want to be legal and safe.

 

-Tom

[Bennett]

My plane came with the MCI Lifesaver with battery backup and it has been trouble-free for 9 years, except for expensive battery replacement. Having said that, I'd wait until OSH to make a decision since there might be new products or at least discounts on existing options.

I too have a GDL 39 3D and a 496...their attitude indicators might really help in an emergency, but nothing beats having something on the panel within your normal scan IMO.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

I too have the MC Lifesaver with the battery backup. Yes, the battery is expensive, and I replace it at every other annual, but the presentation is clear and familiar. I have the "inclinometer" option for the "ball". All in all I am very pleased with unit. With all my other backups I see no reason to replace it with an EFIS variant (at least not now). Fly long enough and you will have some instrument or avionics failures - vacuum or electric. Redundancy can save your life, and in my opinion, a panel mounted unit that becomes part of your regular scan is easiest to transition to in an emergency.

[Tommy]

Without knowing what sort of flying you do, it's kind of difficult what to recommend. If you are a VFR pilot like me that hardly flown at night then something like a Dyson D2 Portable will be more than sufficient but if you are routinely fly in hard IMC then perhaps you need a much more reliable and expensive *cough* solution.

[Marauder]

Just now, rbridges said: IIRC, 2 aspens with battery backups is the requirement, but I'm not 100% sure. 

As to the OP's questions.  What are the odds that both Aspens go dark at the same time? 

I am a huge Aspen fan and the odds are very little that they would both go dark at the same time because of power reasons, but if they both have the same software version if one goes the other is almost sure to follow.

The units share a base firmware but have different operating firmware to drive the separate functions. I would be more worried if I had a G500 than an Aspen 2000. The G500 can drive only one PFD and if the PFD failed you can't move it into reversion on the MFD. The Aspens have independent AHRS, magnetic sensors and share a GPS unless you opted for the upgrade. Battery backup is now available for the G500 which is a great addition but I hear it is pricey.

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[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

My plane came with the MCI Lifesaver with battery backup and it has been trouble-free for 9 years, except for expensive battery replacement.

Here's an option on replacing the Lifesaver battery:

http://www.csobeech.com/files/MidContinentBattery-9015607.pdf

[KSMooniac]

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said: My plane came with the MCI Lifesaver with battery backup and it has been trouble-free for 9 years, except for expensive battery replacement.

Here's an option on replacing the Lifesaver battery:

http://www.csobeech.com/files/MidContinentBattery-9015607.pdf

Already have done exactly that twice. Didn't know the CSOB folks published that until now, though. I went through the sticker shock 6 or 7 years ago and then did some research and assembly on my own...

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[GeorgePerry]

I'd watch the news out of Oshkosh this year.  Might be some really good, low cost options coming our way.

[mike_elliott]

I think Garmin will have their G5 available for 1.2 AMU's, not sure if the FAA will have blessed it by then or not, but can only imagine the squeak Garmin is making in OC about it.

[Browncbr1]

I'll comment on the D2 since I recently bought one...   One nice thing is that it puts out a wifi signal that streams all the data to iPad or iPhone.  I had an extra iPhone laying around, so I velcroed it to the right panel for copilot use in emergency.  It has ground track, speed , altitude vertical speed, everything.    In vfr turbulence with a lot of side gusts that cause a lot of yaw movement, I noticed the horizon was a bit jumpy.  Up and down turb is ok. It's the side to side where it shows weakness.  So, it vfr turb, I just put it on the G force page for reference.  It's nice to be able to move it around easily rather than a permanent install.   The ram mount that comes with it provides much more options.  Currently, mine is clipped in a panel.   

[LANCECASPER]

The Garmin G5 is now STC'd

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/general-aviation/2016-07-24/garmin-g5-efis-stcd-certified-aircraft

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/announcement-g5-certificated/

[Bennett]

Glad to hear about the STC. Does anyone know if this unit has autopilot outputs? I didn't see anything about that. The Bendix/king replacement for their vacuum AI is supposed to have the ability to drive the KAP autopilots. Any word if this unit will actually be on the market this year?

[ArtVandelay]

Edit: I didn't realize the G5 can be a EHSI or AI (PFD)...cool.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Bennett said:

Glad to hear about the STC. Does anyone know if this unit has autopilot outputs? I didn't see anything about that. The Bendix/king replacement for their vacuum AI is supposed to have the ability to drive the KAP autopilots. Any word if this unit will actually be on the market this year?

The Garmin G5 does not have autopilot outputs. 

The King KI-300 has now been moved back to at least the first quarter of 2017.       http://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=112499

[Bennett]

Thanks for the quick reply.

[LANCECASPER]

I should say that the G5 doesn't have autopilot outputs on the certified version (it does on the experimental version).

It also has an HSI page on the experimental. Wouldn't it be awesome if they eventually certified 2 G5's to replace the KI and the HSI?

Here's the manual for the experimental version: http://static.garmin.com/pumac/190-02072-00_B.pdf

[Bennett]

The experimental versions are exactly what I want. Presumably I could use the Garmin servos in place of the finicky and troublesome Honeywell units. I suppose the KAP box could be removed. Of course the FAA would have to approve.