M20G prebuy

[chrisk]

I can say with good confidence that I would probably never buy a "G", unless I found a screaming deal on one.  And this doesn't sound like a screaming deal.   My order of preference for older Mooneys is:  F, E, C/D, G Here is why for me:

• It cost the same to hangar almost any plane.
• It cost almost the same to insure a $35K plane and a $55K plane
• An annual cost around the same.
• Fuel costs between an F and G will be insignificant.
• There are significant differences between a F and G in terms of range and useful load.
• I have always wanted more power in any plane I have flown.

What makes a screaming deal:  Finding a plane that some one loved and over improved, which is being sold for an average or below price.   Tell me this plane has a new panel stuffed with Gamins latest, an Aspen, a 3 axis auto pilot, low time recent over hauled engine, and a recent fuel tank strip and reseal. --all priced at $40K and I'll be happy to buy it. 

[Marauder]

17 hours ago, TheTurtle said:

not sure.  In my head the cherokee seems bigger all the way around. didnt think the mooney with manual gear would be that much weight.

Hah, I dont.  40k per the wife.  Big career change and just about to pay of the house so im lucky shes letting me spend anything.

Ive seen Fs close to 40 but they either have a weak panel or a spent engine.  At least so far thats what Ive seen.  Only been really looking at this range mooney for a couple weeks.  Dad used to own a C when I was a kid.

thanks for the welcome!

I think you need to look at this from the perspective of a longer time period. You are absolutely right that you won't find the perfect F for the price range you are looking for. Have you considered looking at an F that is in good mechanical shape and that you can invest in over time? You did call yourself a Turtle. Here is the before and after of my F after 25 years of ownership. Just make sure it is an F you are looking for. You can probably find a J for a little more money with enough engine time left and improve it over time.

 

[chrisk]

1 minute ago, Marauder said:

I think you need to look at this from the perspective of a longer time period. You are absolutely right that you won't find the perfect F for the price range you are looking for. Have you considered looking at an F that is in good mechanical shape and that you can invest in over time? You did call yourself a Turtle. Here is the before and after of my F after 25 years of ownership. Just make sure it is an F you are looking for. You can probably find a J for a little more money with enough engine time left and improve it over time.

 

When I was looking several years ago, I would have been happy to find a F like yours (prior to your panel makeover).   I would have been ecstatic to have found one after a make over like yours. 

[Mcstealth]

20 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I think if yck with LASAR, you will find  they have an STC to install the 200 HP engine turning your G into an F.

http://www.lasar.com/mod-details.asp?id=2

Clarence

Only $750 to purchase the STC. I guess that's not too bad. 80 hours of Labor is listed. I assume that would include some fabrication for the simple fact of all the different engine models that are out there, airboxes baffles etcetera etcetera. Any engine type you wished as a bonus.

Find a run-out G model, Put the 200 horsepower in it, Would it cost less money than an F model? Probably not. Would it be worth it? I say yes If you own the airplane long enough.

[TheTurtle]

3 hours ago, chrisk said:

I can say with good confidence that I would probably never buy a "G", unless I found a screaming deal on one.  And this doesn't sound like a screaming deal.   My order of preference for older Mooneys is:  F, E, C/D, G Here is why for me:

• It cost the same to hangar almost any plane.
• It cost almost the same to insure a $35K plane and a $55K plane
• An annual cost around the same.
• Fuel costs between an F and G will be insignificant.
• There are significant differences between a F and G in terms of range and useful load.
• I have always wanted more power in any plane I have flown.

What makes a screaming deal:  Finding a plane that some one loved and over improved, which is being sold for an average or below price.   Tell me this plane has a new panel stuffed with Gamins latest, an Aspen, a 3 axis auto pilot, low time recent over hauled engine, and a recent fuel tank strip and reseal. --all priced at $40K and I'll be happy to buy it. 

no waas on this one but does have enroute gps.  all the mooney things have been fixed like tank reseal, new prop and hub and spinner, front gear has been upgraded to the one that has stops.  Its not the awesomest one ever but the guy did a lot of work on it including some speed mods. mid time engine.  has a wing leveler, actually Ill just post the list of changes/fixes.

I see what you are saying on the power, we all want MOR Power.

as far as useful load it looks like with full tanks the F has 88 extra pounds of stuff it can carry.  A little more if you fill the tanks to only the 52gallons that the G has to make it fair.  Thats not enough to sway me.   that 20HP will definately help getting out of mountains though no matter what. 

choices choices. 

·         Replaced position lights with Grimes LED position / Comet flash strobes.

·         Replaced rotating beacon on belly with strobe.

·         Replaced right elevator skin and re-trimmed aircraft.

·         Rebuilt brakes & later replaced caliper

·         Replaced Hartzell propeller with new Hartzell blended airfoil propeller, controller, and spinner.

·         Replaced landing gear shock disks.

·         Replaced nose gear bracket with rebuilt bracket with over travel stops.

·         Resealed fuel tanks.

·         Rebuilt fuel sending units in both tanks.

·         Replaced all tires and tubes.

·         Rebuilt Britton autopilot system and linked with GPS and VOR / ILS.

·         Rebuilt Britton PC system.

·         Replaced King Transponder with Garmin 327 transponder and replaced altitude encoder.

·         Rebuilt Artificial Horizon.

·         Installed Sigtronics Stereo Intercom system and jacks.

·         Replaced ELT with new 121.5 / 406 MHz unit with GPS coordinates.

·         Replaced generator with alternator (extra belt tied back on engine).

·         Relocated engine gauges and flight instruments to improve visibility.

·         Replaced King KX170a with rebuilt King KX170b.

·         Added vacuum gauge.

·         Added Air Gizmo dock and Garmin 560 GPS with Satellite weather and GDL-39 weather & traffic.

·         Added Garmin 300XL GPS and linked to Garmin 560.

·         Added Garmin GDL 39 and linked with Garmin 560 and Bluetooth to I-Pad.

·         Added Outside Antenna for GDL-39.

·         Rebuilt Bendix magnetos.

·         Replaced spark plugs and wire harness.

·         Replaced muffler and exhaust pipe.

·         Added Fuel flow meter and linked to Garmin 300XL.

·         Replaced Throttle, Mixture, & Propeller controls.

·         Removed old radio units, instruments, and old wire from aircraft.  Labeled wires in new harness.

·         Replaced analog clock with digital clock / timer.

·         Rebuilt compass.

·         Rebuilt Fuel Gauges and both fuel sending units.

[TheTurtle]

3 hours ago, chrisk said:

When I was looking several years ago, I would have been happy to find a F like yours (prior to your panel makeover).   I would have been ecstatic to have found one after a make over like yours. 

your panel was awesome originally, now its at unobtainium levels for me.  I have foreflight though with pretty pictures!!!

[bonal]

Someone with such tiny print should have no trouble fitting in a C or E. Seriously I have had 3 in mine and its not a problem If you wife is on the short side she will most likely have the seat all the way forward and that makes for plenty of space behind.  We love our converted D except when its in for a rectal exam (I mean annual)

[TheTurtle]

Just now, bonal said:

Someone with such tiny print should have no trouble fitting in a C or E. Seriously I have had 3 in mine and its not a problem If you wife is on the short side she will most likely have the seat all the way forward and that makes for plenty of space behind.  We love our converted D except when its in for a rectal exam (I mean annual)

haha.  I didnt want the post to be 9 miles long, but maybe I went overboard on that one. 

If you have 2 6' plus people in the front what kind of room is there in the back.  It looked to me when I sat in a C if I have my seat where I need it for rudder travel theres maybe 2-4inches between the seat back and the back seat.  You would have to sidesaddle in the back seat.  That would be ok when its me and a buddy and dragging my wife along kicking and screaming.  But if my buddy wants to bring his wife as well its going to get weird back there. 

Theres a C for sale here at KSNA, I think Ill drag my wife out and make her get in the back seat so we can see for sure.

[N9453V]

I own a 1970 G model and have for the past 6 years and put about 1100 hours on the plane. I plan on about 135 KTAS. It is definitely slower than the F as others have said, but the 180HP O-360 is arguably the most reliable powerplant out there. You are much more likely to meet/exceed TBO with an O-360 than it's fuel-injected counterpart and avoid a top overhaul on the way. Also, overhaul cost is a fair bit less. I fly with 3 people and a dog on occasion and the back seat is much more comfortable in the F/G than the C/E and I've got a lot time ferrying E models.

I was initially focused on a C (I made the choice of powerplant due to lower operating/maintenance costs), but purchased the G due to how it was equipped (I wanted a GNS 430W, 2-axis autopilot, HSI and engine monitor). As others have said, I'd recommend a pre-buy by a Mooney Service Center. In California, I'd suggest LASAR in Lakeport, CA.

Let me know if you have any G questions. I'm pretty sure I have the highest time G in the fleet (9500 hours).

-Andrew

Edited June 17, 2016 by N9453V

[TheTurtle]

2 hours ago, N9453V said:

I own a 1970 G model and have for the past 6 years and put about 1100 hours on the plane. I plan on about 135 KTAS. It is definitely slower than the F as others have said, but the 180HP O-360 is arguably the most reliable powerplant out there. You are much more likely to meet/exceed TBO with an O-360 than it's fuel-injected counterpart and avoid a top overhaul on the way. Also, overhaul cost is a fair bit less. I fly with 3 people and a dog on occasion and the back seat is much more comfortable in the F/G than the C/E and I've got a lot time ferrying E models.

I was initially focused on a C (I made the choice of powerplant due to lower operating/maintenance costs), but purchased the G due to how it was equipped (I wanted a GNS 430W, 2-axis autopilot, HSI and engine monitor). As others have said, I'd recommend a pre-buy by a Mooney Service Center. In California, I'd suggest LASAR in Lakeport, CA.

Let me know if you have any G questions. I'm pretty sure I have the highest time G in the fleet (9500 hours).

-Andrew

thanks for the offer.  glad to see there are a few people that love their Gs!

[Mcstealth]

2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Unless the STC addresses it specifically, anddon't think that it does, you'd still be stuck with the G's (2525 pound) gross weight and 52 gallons of fuel.  The G's gross weight is purely punitive and is a full 50 pounds less than even the C and E's at 2575 pounds and a full 215 pounds less than the F's at 2740 pounds. 

Its a real shame that Mooney decided to handicap the G the way they did by making it's gross weight less than even the C and the E's.  No wonder it didn't sell any better than it did.  A wonderful airframe and engine combination otherwise.        

Goodness. Very valid points. I assumed the f and g had the same weight allowances.I obviously assumed wrong.

[Mcstealth]

Can the GE model get the gross weight increase likes J models and K models can get?

[chrisk]

18 hours ago, TheTurtle said:

no waas on this one but does have enroute gps.  all the mooney things have been fixed like tank reseal, new prop and hub and spinner, front gear has been upgraded to the one that has stops.  Its not the awesomest one ever but the guy did a lot of work on it including some speed mods. mid time engine.  has a wing leveler, actually Ill just post the list of changes/fixes.

I see what you are saying on the power, we all want MOR Power.

as far as useful load it looks like with full tanks the F has 88 extra pounds of stuff it can carry.  A little more if you fill the tanks to only the 52gallons that the G has to make it fair.  Thats not enough to sway me.   that 20HP will definately help getting out of mountains though no matter what. 

choices choices. 

 

·         Replaced position lights with Grimes LED position / Comet flash strobes.

·         Replaced rotating beacon on belly with strobe.

·         Replaced right elevator skin and re-trimmed aircraft.

·         Rebuilt brakes & later replaced caliper

·         Replaced Hartzell propeller with new Hartzell blended airfoil propeller, controller, and spinner.

·         Replaced landing gear shock disks.

·         Replaced nose gear bracket with rebuilt bracket with over travel stops.

·         Resealed fuel tanks.

·         Rebuilt fuel sending units in both tanks.

·         Replaced all tires and tubes.

·         Rebuilt Britton autopilot system and linked with GPS and VOR / ILS.

·         Rebuilt Britton PC system.

·         Replaced King Transponder with Garmin 327 transponder and replaced altitude encoder.

·         Rebuilt Artificial Horizon.

·         Installed Sigtronics Stereo Intercom system and jacks.

·         Replaced ELT with new 121.5 / 406 MHz unit with GPS coordinates.

·         Replaced generator with alternator (extra belt tied back on engine).

·         Relocated engine gauges and flight instruments to improve visibility.

·         Replaced King KX170a with rebuilt King KX170b.

·         Added vacuum gauge.

·         Added Air Gizmo dock and Garmin 560 GPS with Satellite weather and GDL-39 weather & traffic.

·         Added Garmin 300XL GPS and linked to Garmin 560.

·         Added Garmin GDL 39 and linked with Garmin 560 and Bluetooth to I-Pad.

·         Added Outside Antenna for GDL-39.

·         Rebuilt Bendix magnetos.

·         Replaced spark plugs and wire harness.

·         Replaced muffler and exhaust pipe.

·         Added Fuel flow meter and linked to Garmin 300XL.

·         Replaced Throttle, Mixture, & Propeller controls.

·         Removed old radio units, instruments, and old wire from aircraft.  Labeled wires in new harness.

·         Replaced analog clock with digital clock / timer.

·         Rebuilt compass.

·         Rebuilt Fuel Gauges and both fuel sending units.

It sounds nice. Post some pictures when you finally see it.  And check for damage history.  A new prop is often the result of a gear up landing, which is not horrible.  Just make sure the engine had a proper inspection, where it was opened up.

[TheTurtle]

ok guys do I run away or start beating him down on price.  Its at 35k right now.  Prebuy found this stuff at first glance.

Mouse shit and poison in the left wing.  Maybe light corrosion on the spar.  Hasnt opened the right wing yet.

1 prop. gov appears to be seeping by control shaft and at parting seams. 

2 RH mag has possible leak at magneto case parting seams, indicating that the drive seal is leaking.  The magneto would have to be disassemble to verify and this is only a visual observation.

3 LH elevator that has a 3/4-1'' crack in it at the trailing edge

 

I had him stop the prebuy until I talk to my mechanic and get the wisdom of the group.

 

[bonal]

I think I would walk. This looks like one that has been neglected and unless you want to put dollars lots of them you would be money ahead finding a better example even with a higher purchase price.

[FlyboyKC]

On 6/16/2016 at 2:40 PM, TheTurtle said:

Im the type of person that never sells something once I get it.  So my thought on the G is....   I dont want a shortbody.  the back seats are just a joke.  Ill almost never have a backseater but when I do...

  I dont really care about the fuel injection although 20hp is always nice.  I figure I fly a cherokee 180 now which weighs more than the G and it will get me out of Big Bear so the mooney could only be better.

carb sips a little less gas.  The G model is priced better than a comparable F (obviously).

Ill check the for sales here.  You mean to tell me not every plane for sale is on barnstormers or trade a plane???

that said anybody with a G or F for under 38k send me a PM.

I just bought a G last year. I am not sure if this is a down or upgrade since my last plane was a Cherokee Six. Different missions for different times. I like my G, I need the back seat for the kids and while it doesn't have the 200hp, it still climbs well enough and is only about 5 knots slower in cruise. Pay now or pay later, but if you can find a good G for a reasonable price I would go with it. If you a G I would be happy to compare notes.

FB

[FlyboyKC]

2 hours ago, TheTurtle said:

ok guys do I run away or start beating him down on price.  Its at 35k right now.  Prebuy found this stuff at first glance.

Mouse shit and poison in the left wing.  Maybe light corrosion on the spar.  Hasnt opened the right wing yet.

1 prop. gov appears to be seeping by control shaft and at parting seams. 

2 RH mag has possible leak at magneto case parting seams, indicating that the drive seal is leaking.  The magneto would have to be disassemble to verify and this is only a visual observation.

3 LH elevator that has a 3/4-1'' crack in it at the trailing edge

 

I had him stop the prebuy until I talk to my mechanic and get the wisdom of the group.

 

My friend had to basically scrap a Aerocoupe because of all the corrosion the mouse droppings caused. I would be very very cautious.

[TheTurtle]

disappointing but better than the spar repair I suppose.

[madjano]

Sorry I wasn't around to get a first hand look at it.  Judging from the pictures, I'd have to agree with bonal.

When buying vintage, you want to start with the best "bones" and then prepare to fix all the unseen stuff that the pre-buy didn't find.  

Hangar rash is one thing, mouse urine very bad.  

I bought my E to fly - not to fix, but to each their own...  See Alex's M20D thread.  (although i think he's jones'n to fly his own plane)

I had very minor rash on my elevator, I called Don Maxwell and talked about my options. He talked my ear off even though he wasn't doing the pre-buy. I wouldn't hesitate to call Don or Paul Loewen at Lasar when time comes to get serious. 

There are plenty more fish in the Mooney sea.

Jan

 

[TheTurtle]

let the owner know I was walking away this AM.  so back on the hunt for the elusive sub 40k F/G without a timedout engine. 

Just a note; the owner called the mechanic first thing and seemed to be upset with his own mechanic as the plane was just out of annual, he wanted it cleaned up by this prebuy mechanic whether I was going to purchase or not.

I hope he can get it sold or fly it but I just cant take the gamble.  to rich for my blood.

Edited July 12, 2016 by TheTurtle