TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 Hi all, Im new here. Looking at buying a 1968 M20G. I have some pre-prebuy questions. Im looking at buying a Mooney that is about 300nm from the closest mooney service center. The plane is 1500 miles from me. For a sub 50k plane is it standard to have it flown somewhere for prebuy? Is it normal for the owner to pickup the tab on that or the seller? the flight not the prebuy... Has anybody used savvy for prebuy? My only thought is dont use the plane's current mechanic to do the prebuy. any other tips? the plane is currently based in the middle of Nebraska. Quote
bonal Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 hello and welcome turtle I guess the common question would be where are you based and where is the G based before anyone can provide suggestions. From what I know pre buy is paid by the buyer and there needs to be conditions set for how and where lots of options here as well as what the party inspecting will look at. most folks that find themselves close to terms on an airplane like to get the pre buy done as an annual to really be thorough and also to reset the clock on the year. tell us more to help us help you, Others will chime in with much more help. Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 thanks. Im in southern california, KSNA. The plane is in Nebraska. Hartington, NE (0B4) The plane has a 1 month old annual. Quote
rbridges Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 Do a search on prebuys and you should find quite a bit. One thread that sticks in my mind is the guy who found corrosion on his wing spar. Cost to repair was quite a bit. As far as I know, the plane is still grounded. The existing annual would mean very little to me unless it was at a reputable shop. Agreeing with Bonal, PPI generally paid by buyer. Usually convert it to an annual inspection if everything looks good. Cost of PPI could be worth it if it steers you away from a plane with major hidden squawks. Get a GOOD shop to do the PPI! Quote
carusoam Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 Welcome aboard Turtle. Pre-purchase inspections are part of a financial protection strategy. You pay for it because it is your wallet that you want to protect. Got it? The device you are considering purchasing is near 50 years old, and you don't know the plane or the owner or how one used or didn't use the other... The better the PPI is the less risk of buying a problem is. Some less common problems can cost more than the price of the plane. The first part of eliminating potential problems is to visit the plane and owner in person. Prior to the visit use email to exchange photos, logs and other details... If this is your first purchase of a piece of machinery, Know that it is a huge risk to buy it that far from your home. There are no standards fo PPIs One fortunate part of the PPI is it is focused on airworthiness issues. The other half can be equally expensive. Buy one that is well cared for to skip the nickel and dime effect of well worn machinery. If going to visit the plane is in your plan, you're on the right track. If you are hoping to visit, buy, and fly it home in one or two days... It is better to do some serious homework before going this route. What's your background? Mechanic, engineer, scientist, Dentist, F18 pilot or other? Some people know and understand the risks better than others. Old, unused planes have some high risks beyond financial ones. I bought my first plane, an M20C, with a minimal PPI. It is OK to go this way as an engineer. It was a risk and it worked well for a decade or more.... hidden damage and corrosion are the things to be most concerned with. A less common challenge: Visible damage that has passed inspections by one mechanic may not pass all mechanic's inspections. Try hard not to get stuck. Saving money up front while hoping.... is not a good flight plan. About me... I used to be an engineer that bought and sold new and used industrial machinery... Best regards, -a- Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 (edited) Im an IT guy that grew up on a farm driving and fixing tractors, bikes, motorcycles and cars since knee high to a grasshopper. Currently doing a "built not bought" frame off restomod on a 72 chevy truck. I can weld, paint and beat on sheet metal. I tinker with electronics in my spare time. arduino/Raspberry PI etc. I also made half the furniture in my house so I have some woodworking skills. I feel like none of this is relevant but hey you asked and il like talking about my stuff Main concern is it being so far away im not sure I can see it in person before purchase. I have a bunch of pictures which my local IA is looking at and Im trying to track down someplace to do the prebuy a little closer than the MSC. If it was a 150k plane id have no problem beating him into flying it where ever for the prebuy, I just am not sure if its still "OK" to push for that in the el cheapo side of aviation. The plane is flown regularly and has had the main sticking points like the 100hour prop AD and the fuel tanks resealed fixed. (new prop, tanks resealed a couple years ago). The last big thing is that spar corrosion check which he said had been done and resprayed with corrosion X but Id still like somebody to check that. Edited June 16, 2016 by TheTurtle Quote
rbridges Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, TheTurtle said: Im an IT guy that grew up on a farm driving and fixing tractors, bikes, motorcycles and cars since knee high to a grasshopper. Main concern is it being so far away im not sure I can see it in person before purchase. I have a bunch of pictures which my local IA is looking at and Im trying to track down someplace to do the prebuy a little closer than the MSC. If it was a 150k plane id have no problem beating him into flying it where ever for the prebuy, I just am not sure if its still "OK" to push for that in the el cheapo side of aviation. The plane is flown regularly and has had the main sticking points like the 100hour prop AD and the fuel tanks resealed fixed. (new prop, tanks resealed a couple years ago). The last big thing is that spar corrosion check which he said had been done and resprayed with corrosion X but Id still like somebody to check that. absolutely. I could say anything over the phone or internet. Definitely have someone verify anything that concerns you. $50k wouldn't break me, but I sure wouldn't want to lose it. Quote
carusoam Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 Moving it to the PPI place and bringing it back is also your cost. Most deep PPIs will uncover some things that sellers don't even know about. Especially if the previous annuals don't look behind all the inspection covers. picture buying a good tractor that is 50 years old and 1500mi away. Now picture the tractor being made of aluminum and other alloys that are more susceptible to corrosion... the problem with using bike, motorcycle, and car philosophy... These aren't $40k devices, and you can walk away when they stop working. In most purchases of used planes I have seen, the buyer will specify that all AW issues are to be complied with. Paint, interior and instrumentation and wear items are harder to put values on without the mechanic having deep Mooney experience. Some sellers are not easy to work with. Some buyers are the same.... The lowest cost PPI should ensure airworthiness. Did you say you have a mechanic working with you on the purchase? Lowest cost to you may be Sending him first. The first cut: Does all the paperwork meet expectations. Does the plane match the description. Has it been flying... If it doen't meet his expectations, you can end that part of the project on a low cost. A good PPI is expensive. It can be dissapointing to get bad news. Bad news that you can walk away from is better than bad news after you bought something. It gets more expensive to walk away. what is your typical flights that you are considering the G for? Best regards, -a- Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 you can also park the tractor on the side of the road and walk home. not so much at 10000ft The mechanic/owner of my FBO where I got my PPL is a friend and hes giving me some hints. Not really my mechanic as I dont own a plane and he wouldnt be working on mine anyway. has enough school planes to fix. Ill be building hours for the first year. Im working towards IR/CPL/CFI. Just sold my business and getting into a new field with less money and no stress !! After that it will generally be me shorthops to LA with my wife or slightly longer to san fran with a buddy. Dont have many friends (IT Guy) and fewer still that have any interest in GA so it would be very rare to have 4 people in it at once. thanks for all the good tips. Quote
carusoam Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 There are many known planes for sale by known people on this board. Why go so far for a less known plane/owner? Check the planes for sale part of this site. Is there something outstanding with that particular example? Is there a reason you want the 180hp carb'd engine? Is there a reason you want the mid length body? There are a couple of M20Es for sale. Short body w/200hp injected engines for comparison. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
steingar Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 Best pre buy is done by the mechanic you plan to have take care of the aircraft. Barring that a Service center is a damn fine idea. Probably spendy, the one to which I talked took three days are around two thousand for a pre buy. Would I have been able to do it I would have in a heartbeat. You can have the owner deliver the aircraft, though you'll have pay his expenses going back (you can't legally pay his expenses to fly it there unless he has a commercial certificate). Were it my airplane to sell I'd deliver it, but someone else might feel differently. Good luck with your purchase. By the way, the G is probably the least desirable Mooney for me. A bigger back seat I don't want without the 200 hp I do want. Quote
sailon Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 Having recently been thru this myself with my F, Steingar has a good strategy, however, I would also add the following: The last annual almost doesn't count. It was done so that the seller can sell with a current annual, and items that don't affect airworthiness, but should be fixed (i.e., plugs at twice the service limits but still work) won't be fixed. If you are not near a Mooney shop, give them a call. I was very lucky, and was able to find the service shop that did the 7 annuals prior to the last signoff, and he knew my airplane very well. The important thing is to review the specific Mooney gotcha's and get your mechanic familiar with them. If your personal mechanic does not have any Mooney experience, I would recommend another personal mechanic who does. Take your mechanic with you and do the PPI at the sellers hangar. Moving the bird during pre-buy inspection time is a risky venture best left to the brokers. Check that the bird is airworthy (compressions, detailed wing spar check, landing gear checks, etc.) Concur with the rest of the group to avoid the G and go for the E or F versions. Good Luck!! Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 Im the type of person that never sells something once I get it. So my thought on the G is.... I dont want a shortbody. the back seats are just a joke. Ill almost never have a backseater but when I do... I dont really care about the fuel injection although 20hp is always nice. I figure I fly a cherokee 180 now which weighs more than the G and it will get me out of Big Bear so the mooney could only be better. carb sips a little less gas. The G model is priced better than a comparable F (obviously). Ill check the for sales here. You mean to tell me not every plane for sale is on barnstormers or trade a plane??? that said anybody with a G or F for under 38k send me a PM. Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 48 minutes ago, steingar said: By the way, the G is probably the least desirable Mooney for me. A bigger back seat I don't want without the 200 hp I do want. I think its everybodys least fav. I gave myself the Turtle name here since its the slowest in the mooney fleet lol. 1 Quote
madjano Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 FWIW, My mechanic James Dux has been around a lot of Mooney's and he used to work on a G based here in Crete, NE (CEK) for several years. Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 1 minute ago, madjano said: FWIW, My mechanic James Dux has been around a lot of Mooney's and he used to work on a G based here in Crete, NE (CEK) for several years. thanks Quote
carusoam Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 Carb sips less gas..? So does the F when you only use 180 of its 200hp. But the FI'd engine can burn all of the fuel producing high power LOP. That is the other half of Mooney ownership. Speed & Efficiency! Check your example of the G to see if you get an engine monitor and FF gauge. If it has these and a carb temp indicator, it had a knowledgable pilot in it's ownership history. These devices cost some money, but have some great value. If it only has the ship's gauge for CHT and a single EGT, things aren't looking so rosey... Try to go easy on the short body crowd. Some people put full sized adults back there. Accidently insulting somebody else's plane choice can lead to missed opinions that you may want to hear... Best regards, -a- 2 Quote
kpaul Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 13 minutes ago, TheTurtle said: Im the type of person that never sells something once I get it. So my thought on the G is.... I dont want a shortbody. the back seats are just a joke. Ill almost never have a backseater but when I do... I dont really care about the fuel injection although 20hp is always nice. I figure I fly a cherokee 180 now which weighs more than the G and it will get me out of Big Bear so the mooney could only be better. carb sips a little less gas. The G model is priced better than a comparable F (obviously). Ill check the for sales here. You mean to tell me not every plane for sale is on barnstormers or trade a plane??? that said anybody with a G or F for under 38k send me a PM. It's a F listed for $43k right here on MS Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 Just now, carusoam said: Carb sips less gas..? So does the F when you only use 180 of its 200hp. But the FI'd engine can burn all of the fuel producing high power LOP. That is the other half of Mooney ownership. Speed & Efficiency! Check your example of the G to see if you get an engine monitor and FF gauge. If it has these and a carb temp indicator, it had a knowledgable pilot in it's ownership history. These devices cost some money, but have some great value. If it only has the ship's gauge for CHT and a single EGT, things aren't looking so rosey... Try to go easy on the short body crowd. Some people put full sized adults back there. Accidently insulting somebody else's plane choice can lead to missed opinions that you may want to hear... Best regards, -a- no offense meant to the shortbody guys. Im 6'3" so with the pilot seat back my little asian wife couldnt even get in the back which scared me off this G does have fuel flow gauge and digital engine monitor. as to carb sipping less gas, idk, heard it on the internets... An F is/was my first choice but theres nothing with a decent IFR panel under 40k (wife limit) that Ive seen so far. Im not in a huge rush to purchase but want to get going fairly soon. Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 4 minutes ago, kpaul said: It's a F listed for $43k right here on MS its a nice plane but I doubt i can beat him down 5k. He seems to be right in the market price for an F. Quote
rbridges Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 8 minutes ago, TheTurtle said: no offense meant to the shortbody guys. Im 6'3" so with the pilot seat back my little asian wife couldnt even get in the back which scared me off this G does have fuel flow gauge and digital engine monitor. as to carb sipping less gas, idk, heard it on the internets... An F is/was my first choice but theres nothing with a decent IFR panel under 40k (wife limit) that Ive seen so far. Im not in a huge rush to purchase but want to get going fairly soon. I've got a C, and I agree about rear leg room. If you run lean of peak, the fuel injected guys can put up some good numbers. Of course, that's kinda nit picking. It's not like any mooney chugs a ton of fuel. Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 i just looked. I had in my head the cherokee 180 must weigh more than the M20g. wrong. m20g is 1585 empty with a gross of 2525 cherokee 180 is 1310 empty with a gross of 2400. so maybe this G will be struggling at 250fpm leaving big bear or mammoth. maybe i do want that extra 20hp. I need to find somebody in SoCal to give me a ride in one. Ill buy the gas and lunch. Quote
TheTurtle Posted June 16, 2016 Author Report Posted June 16, 2016 Just now, bluehighwayflyer said: I'm not sure why you would have thought that a fixed gear and fixed prop Cherokee 180 would weigh more than a retractable gear and constant speed prop M20G. I would have been surprised if it had been the other way around. not sure. In my head the cherokee seems bigger all the way around. didnt think the mooney with manual gear would be that much weight. 2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said: If you have a 50K budget I would keep shopping for a F personally. You can find a nice one at that price point these days. Good luck, and welcome aboard! Hah, I dont. 40k per the wife. Big career change and just about to pay of the house so im lucky shes letting me spend anything. Ive seen Fs close to 40 but they either have a weak panel or a spent engine. At least so far thats what Ive seen. Only been really looking at this range mooney for a couple weeks. Dad used to own a C when I was a kid. thanks for the welcome! Quote
Guest Posted June 16, 2016 Report Posted June 16, 2016 9 minutes ago, TheTurtle said: not sure. In my head the cherokee seems bigger all the way around. didnt think the mooney with manual gear would be that much weight. Hah, I dont. 40k per the wife. Big career change and just about to pay of the house so im lucky shes letting me spend anything. Ive seen Fs close to 40 but they either have a weak panel or a spent engine. At least so far thats what Ive seen. Only been really looking at this range mooney for a couple weeks. Dad used to own a C when I was a kid. thanks for the welcome! I think if you check with LASAR, you will find that they have an STC to install the 200 HP engine turning your G into an F. http://www.lasar.com/mod-details.asp?id=2 Clarence Quote
steingar Posted June 17, 2016 Report Posted June 17, 2016 17 hours ago, TheTurtle said: I think its everybodys least fav. I gave myself the Turtle name here since its the slowest in the mooney fleet lol. Things will still fly 135 knots all day. 1 Quote
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