Let's talk about tires...

[jetdriven]

Do not use desser branded tubes. I've had both fail and a friend of mine has also had one of his fail.  The rubber rots and they get a pinhole and leak suddenly. It cost me 250$ on a trip to have the tube replaced.  Boxing the tube up and leaving it in the hangar it disintegrated in a year.  They're garbage. 

Their standard retreads are great though. 

Edited July 24, 2017 by jetdriven

[Raptor05121]

7 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You can't use the Monster tires on thr Mooney. They are too big. They will grind the zerk fittings off your gear legs and ruin the paint. 

I bought a set once, being a CB I bought a tire grinder from Jegs and ground about 1/4 inch of tread off of them so I could use them.

Thanks for the knowledge. The salesman at the booth promised me they would fit. What an ass

[rbridges]

15 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

Thanks for the knowledge. The salesman at the booth promised me they would fit. What an ass

I would take advice from this forum 100% of the time over something told to me by a salesman.

[Raptor05121]

11 minutes ago, rbridges said:

I would take advice from this forum 100% of the time over something told to me by a salesman.

Yeah that goes without a doubt! I love this place

[Yetti]

Airhawks and dresser tubes 2.5 years.  250 hours.  lots of landings.   Check pressure once a month.   No issues.  The professional likes Condors.  May try them next time.

[Hank]

I have a Condor on the nose. I'm about to replace it for the third time; I've replaced mains once, they still look pretty good. The tires were far from  new when I bought my Mooney ten years ago . . . I attribute this to turning rather than Condors being bad tires.

[RLCarter]

6 hours ago, Yetti said:

Airhawks and dresser tubes 2.5 years.  250 hours.  lots of landings.   Check pressure once a month.   No issues.  The professional likes Condors.  May try them next time.

Same thing on the 172 trainer, gets about 400 hrs a year, crap load of landings and heavy breaking from time to time, they go about 600hrs 

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

New Goodyear Flight Custom IIIs with Michelin Air Stop tubes 11 years and 600 hours ago and they still look like new. Since labor is such a big portion of this job and since "away-from-home" failures can be such an inconvenience and expense, inspite of my cheap bastard tendencies I am struggling to see the benefit of economizing here. 

Jim

Because it's all anecdotal. Some people's Air Trac lasted since WWII, some people's Flight Custom III flat spotted on first landing. 

And even if there is some element of truth, 4 sets of cheap tire are almost certainly going to last longer than 1 set of expensive tires. 

 

[rbridges]

I looked mine up. I replaced this tire 4 years ago.  I'm replacing it bc of a thin spot I noticed. Looks like it's from a crosswind landing. Probably could have gone another year if the tread was uniform. 

[RobertGary1]

I'm averaging 15 years on my Airhawks. I usually replace them due to age cracks. Can't see paying 2x more for other brands. 

 

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

15 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

New Goodyear Flight Custom IIIs with Michelin Air Stop tubes 11 years and 600 hours ago and they still look like new. Since labor is such a big portion of this job and since "away-from-home" failures can be such an inconvenience and expense, inspite of my cheap bastard tendencies I am struggling to see the benefit of economizing here. 

Jim

No labor required what-so-ever. Although in decades of ownership I've never seen any evidence that expensive tires last a day longer than less expensive tires. Tubes, yes.

91 Appendix A to Part 43

(c)Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.

Edited July 25, 2017 by RobertGary1

[N6758N]

2 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I'm averaging 15 years on my Airhawks. I usually replace them due to age cracks. Can't see paying 2x more for other brands. 

 

-Robert

Impressive, how many hours a year do you fly? I've never seen a tire last that long, even if it isn't worn out they usually start to dry rot before they hit 10 years old. I wouldn't be signing an annual off with 15 year old tires...

[RobertGary1]

2 minutes ago, N6758N said:

Impressive, how many hours a year do you fly? I've never seen a tire last that long, even if it isn't worn out they usually start to dry rot before they hit 10 years old. I wouldn't be signing an annual off with 15 year old tires...

Over the decades.. between 150 hrs and 30 hrs. Depends on the year. I've never had any dry rot in AirHawks. I have a couple old ones sitting around and other than surface cracking they seem fine. I've cut some up for the rubber and they seem fine throughout. I replaced them due to the age cracks. Are people letting them sit in a pool of water? Why would they get dry rot?

-Robert

Edited July 25, 2017 by RobertGary1

[Tommy]

17 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Apparently I have forgotten how expensive my FCIIIs were. I didn't recall them costing 4x the lowest cost alternative. Regardless, though, I agree with you about people's experiences with their tires being all over the map. Some of it is probably environmental but I suspect most of it is pilot technique. Luck probably also plays a factor. 

 

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/600-6.php

Cheapest 6-ply vs. most expensive 8-ply. 

[jetdriven]

3 hours ago, Tommy said:

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/600-6.php

Cheapest 6-ply vs. most expensive 8-ply. 

The cheapest 6-ply tire is the aero trainer. I had a fairly hard landing in my J with one of those tires on the right side only and that's coincidentally the side where my 1200$ lower gear struck the ground and  took me about 700 bucks in labor to fix. And you're not going to put the eight ply $266 Tire on your airplane. So the real price delta is 81$ vs. 213$. Air trac vs 6-ply FCIII. . If you get the desser retread FCIII it's only 18$ more than the air trac.  

Edited July 26, 2017 by jetdriven

[Tommy]

2 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

The cheapest 6-ply tire is the aero trainer. I had a fairly hard landing in my J with one of those tires on the right side only and that's coincidentally the side where my 1200$ lower gear struck the ground and  took me about 7000 bucks in labor to fix. And you're not going to put the eight ply $266 Tire on your airplane. So the real price delta is 81$ vs. 213$. Air trac vs 6-ply FCIII. . If you get the desser retread FCIII it's only 18$ more than the air trac.  

Again, anecdotal evidence. Is there anyway you can be 100% certain that the same damage won't happen if the FCIII was fitted instead of AeroTrainer? 

[Tommy]

18 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I agree, Byron.  Much to do about nothing, financially. I just chose to buy best tire and tube combination I can since they will probably last me 15 years or more. 

How do you know that? 

11 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Buy whatever you want, Tommy. There are no guarantees. 

 

Bingo. You said it. What I am saying to the OP is that, in the absence of objective evidences, he is best to take marketing and individual opinions with a grain of salt. He will probably be better off to run a survey to increase the size of his sample or simply buys the cheapest tire that he is comfortable with. 

[Tommy]

7 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I just don't care what anyone else buys. You pays your nickels and you takes your chances. I never meant to suggest otherwise. I was just relaying my own personal experience.  

Again, you are insinuating buying cheap tires = taking chances.

And again I ask "how do you draw that conclusion?" 

I found when people's personal experience / belief is challenged, many become defensive, not knowing that their individual experience / opinion is the lowest form of evidence... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levels_of_evidence

And I am merely asking, for my and OP's benefit, a slightly higher level of evidence...

Because it's our plane, it's our nickel, and it's our life. going around dishing against a particular tire based on one's limited experience and expertise...

Have you ever considered the possibility that perhaps someone in the near future will do an objective test and discover that FCIII is worse than Air Trac in terms of durability / safety etc etc? 

[Tommy]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Tommy, I am not even reading what you are writing anymore. For the record. I am insinuating nothing. Buy whatever you want for whatever reason you want. I do not care. 

Ad hominem.

If you look back the whole conversation, I wasn't directing at you initially. Instead, I was just making a sweeping statement about individual recommendations. You then said "no benefit of economizing" but I saw "no benefit of splashing out" so I asked for some solid evidences. All I got was anecdotal hearsay and hyperbole - "Best combinations that will last 15 years(!).

Now you are angry and getting personal...

[Tommy]

Don't get me wrong, before we have an objective test done, the best we often got are the individual testimonies. I am simply cautioning the OP to be careful when bases his decision on this kind of recommendations. I did this by simply asking for objective evidences which does not include flashy marketing material. 

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Tommy said:

Again, anecdotal evidence. Is there anyway you can be 100% certain that the same damage won't happen if the FCIII was fitted instead of AeroTrainer? 

I know it didn't because I had a FC3 on the left side. 

Comparing the two, they are quite different. The sidewall of the aero trainer was very flimsy and not much stiffness. Fine for a 172, better perhaps, but for a 2700 lb 201, well it trashed a gear door. Save 200$ on tires and ruin a 1500$ (installed) gear door. Cheap, not frugal. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by jetdriven

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I know it didn't because I had a FC3 on the left side. 

Comparing the two, they are quite different. The sidewall of the aero trainer was very flimsy and not much stiffness. Fine for a 172, better perhaps, but for a 2700 lb 201, well it trashed a gear door. Save 200$ on tires and ruin a 1500$ (installed) gear door. Cheap, not frugal. 

I see. But did you land heavier on one side than the other? The Aerotrainer might be the tire that took most of the brunt? Other possibilities include and certainly do not limit to: 

1) FCIII might also blew and resulted in the same amount of damage if it was placed on the same side when subjected to the same force because the donuts weren't as fresh on that side?

2) Maybe that aerotrainer was one of those rare ones that escaped a good QC? 

3) Was the aerotrainer a much older tire than FCIII on the other side?

4) The runway surface, maybe it was not paved evenly or had rough patch-up areas?

So many possibilities / uncertainties.

With regards to the sidewall thickness and stiffness. How do you know thin and soft automatically translate to poor durability / safety? I can equally argue that thinner and softer tires are better because they cushion the impact more than a strong and stiff tire? I know your gear door was damaged but it sure beats bending the wing (causing fuel leak) or dinging the prop with a very stiff tire (big bounces)? Of course I am just speculating but come to think of it you were too, weren't you? Because neither of us are specialist in rubber / tire technology.

 

[Tommy]

And the reason of my skepticism of the more expensive the better stems from car tires. Time and time again, reviews seem to find cheaper tires mass produced in SE Asia outperforms their more expensive European / N. America competitors. 

[carusoam]

You guys have expended more time on the discussion alone than there is any savings selecting any tire.

Tommy,

Where are you getting your reviews on SE china tires?

 

The coolest part of MS is gathering first hand knowledge of actual Mooney pilots.

 

If the pro pilot that spends his extra time working in a maintenance shop can't answer your question about tire wear and use, to your satisfaction... how could a review from anybody meet with your satisfaction?

I bought some fancy driving shoes now my tires last a lot longer...

Best regards,

-a-

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

You guys have expended more time on the discussion alone than there is any savings selecting any tire.

Tommy,

Where are you getting your reviews on SE china tires?

 

The coolest part of MS is gathering first hand knowledge of actual Mooney pilots.

 

If the pro pilot that spends his extra time working in a maintenance shop can't answer your question about tire wear and use, to your satisfaction... how could a review from anybody meet with your satisfaction?

I bought some fancy driving shoes now my tires last a lot longer...

Best regards,

-a-

Google it. There are plenty. Now I will be the first one to admit that I may well be biased so I look for reviews that confirm my bias. But the fact that they exist along with many other contradictory reviews is pretty revealing. But there don't seem to have any such reviews on GA tires.

None can satisfy because these are all anecdotal evidences presented by pilots (not experienced A&P or tire specialist) who probably had gone through 3 or 4 sets of tires with their Mooney. That's why I say, in the absence of hard evidence, perhaps the cheaper the better!? 

The coolest part of MS is also challenging the knowledge and the understanding of actual Mooney pilots ( myself included of course.)

I also bought some even fancier driving shoes now because my cheap tires last as long as the expensive ones (anecdotal)...

Best regards,

-t-