Sell as is or overhaul and sell?

[Lood]

Come to think of it, your best bet would probably be to overhaul the engine and fly the airplane for 500 odd hours, before selling it. That way, you'll probably cut your loss to the minimum. You'll have gotten something in return for the your money spent and you should get a good price for it.
Not worth it when you don't fly at least 100 hrs/year though.

[romair]

Aviation laboratories can do scanning electron microscopy. Should be around 100 dollars or so, but il thinking it might just be a waste of money to do so at this point.

i already bought a twin so would not want to keep the Mooney for much longer. But I don't want to just give it away, given how clean and well maintained the airplane is.

[Jerry 5TJ]

You might consider getting the plane appraised at as high a value as possible and donating it to a charity.  Depending on your tax situation that might be the best outcome. 

[ArtVandelay]

Check out Jewell for a good overhaul that won't break the bank.

http://jewellaviation.com/pdf/Price%20Sheet%202015%20Engines.pdf

Those prices don't include a lot of extras that may be required in this case, new cam, new cylinders and other items that usually are overhauled at the same time like prop, mags, alternator, etc.

[romair]

53 minutes ago, jerry-N5911Q said:

You might consider getting the plane appraised at as high a value as possible and donating it to a charity.  Depending on your tax situation that might be the best outcome. 

1989 M20J with GTN750, MVP 50, KAP 150, newly sealed tanks and 2100 TT?

Hopefully that is still worth quite a bit of money...

New cam - maybe...I need to look into what is the best option - apparently the new cams from Lycoming are not very durable.

Cylinders could be overhauled.

Prop - 300 hrs since overhaul.

Alternator - 200 hrs SNEW

Starter - 200 hrs since new

Fuel system - 150 hrs since overhaul.

Hoses - 150 hrs since new.

Spark plugs - 150 hrs since new

That's just the firewall forward stuff that has been changed/replaced in the last 3 years...

 

[KSMooniac]

With all of that FWF work already done, perhaps doing a quality field overhaul (including overhauling your first-run jugs) might be the best course of action.  You could be into that for well under 20k unless you hit an unforeseen jackpot like a bad crank or case (highly unlikely).  Just re-use all of your new-ish stuff on the overhauled engine and you've cut out a lot of the cost.

If you go that route, I'd encourage you to specify a few extra steps to make it a "better" engine than what Lycoming puts out.  It doesn't cost a lot more, but can add quite a bit of value to your plane.  I'm speaking of flow-matching the cylinders and lifters, precision balancing of everything, 3-angle valve cuts, and adding a Centrilube mod to the cam or Ney Nozzles to the case to help with cam issues.  You might check out Barrett Precision in Tulsa... I used them for a lot of my recent work and am very satisfied.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

With all of that FWF work already done, perhaps doing a quality field overhaul (including overhauling your first-run jugs) might be the best course of action.  You could be into that for well under 20k unless you hit an unforeseen jackpot like a bad crank or case (highly unlikely).  Just re-use all of your new-ish stuff on the overhauled engine and you've cut out a lot of the cost.

+1. Probably the most bang for your buck.  

As the airplane sits right now most wouldn't even want to test fly it, let alone fly it home to have engine work done at their own local shop.  I bet you'll find a buyer who wants a turn key airplane before you find one who is interested in a project, away from home, right off the bat.

[cujet]

I work as DOM in a corporate flight department. It's our policy to sell aircraft "as is" and not "fix them up" prior to sale. Over the last 20 years, this policy has served us very well. We never hide anything, and we give concessions for equipment in need of replacement. But we never pay for it first, then hope to sell. 

I can't think of a situation where one will make more money completing all the repairs first. If it's absolutely unairworthy, it might make sense to repair just the fault. If it's a cam, replace cam and lifters. Send it on it's way. This can be done WITHOUT an overhaul. For example, the cylinders can be removed without pulling pistons completely out (push piston pin out) and the crankshaft/connecting rods and accessory gears can remain installed and/or assembled. A gasket set, new cam, new lifters and possibly new crank main bearings (not necessary, but not a bad idea) 

HOWEVER, a note of caution. A failed camshaft will eventually produce enough metal to ruin pistons and cylinders. Leading to a very expensive repair. 

 

[romair]

7 hours ago, cujet said:

I work as DOM in a corporate flight department. It's our policy to sell aircraft "as is" and not "fix them up" prior to sale. Over the last 20 years, this policy has served us very well. We never hide anything, and we give concessions for equipment in need of replacement. But we never pay for it first, then hope to sell. 

I can't think of a situation where one will make more money completing all the repairs first.

 

A significant number of the components that get done at engine overhaul, have already been overhauled/replaced in the last 300 hrs. Fuel pump/fuel injection system/spark plugs/starter/alternator/hoses. If I sell it as is, the buyer would pressure a full overhaul discount, when in reality if I do the overhaul, I would not have to change all those parts. Looks like Jewell aviation can do it for about 15k (strictly the engine). I need to talk to them some more, but that if I can get everything done and installed for about 20k, then the overhaul would not hurt me (may even increase the value more than the overhaul expense). The upside to selling first would be getting money sooner, and not having hanger expenses. Also less money out of my pocket to start with...

[cujet]

On 11/17/2015, 11:15:22, romair said:

A significant number of the components that get done at engine overhaul, have already been overhauled/replaced in the last 300 hrs.

Can an overhaul be done "on the cheap" ? Especially in a case like yours? You bet ! 

Even so, any mechanic will follow the Lycoming service bulletin 240 (I think it's revision W now) and there may be mandatory replacement of perfectly good parts. 

If your cam is truly making metal, take a very good look at the piston skirts and cylinder walls. Metal bits can imbed in the aluminum piston skirts and score the cylinders. 

[ryoder]

On November 17, 2015 at 11:20:33 AM, jerry-N5911Q said:

You might consider getting the plane appraised at as high a value as possible and donating it to a charity.  Depending on your tax situation that might be the best outcome. 

I don't get it.  The engine needs an overhaul right?  What's the big deal?  Am I missing something?  These damned aircraft engines always need overhauls.  Overhaul it or sell it cheaper.  I'd love t have a J with an engine that needs an overhaul. I have a C with an engine 500 over tbo and am happy.

[Shadrach]

27 minutes ago, ryoder said:

I don't get it.  The engine needs an overhaul right?  What's the big deal?  Am I missing something?  These damned aircraft engines always need overhauls.  Overhaul it or sell it cheaper.  I'd love t have a J with an engine that needs an overhaul. I have a C with an engine 500 over tbo and am happy.

How many of those hours are yours?are you day VFR only? 

[ryoder]

7 hours ago, Shadrach said:

How many of those hours are yours?are you day VFR only? 

Yeah day VFR and 120 or so are mine.  Even if I had a brand new engine I would assume it would quit at any moment and fly IFR or night only briefly when necessary.  Brand new single engine airplanes lose thrust for various reasons including fuel starvation and icing so really we are all taking a huge risk during takeoff, flying low over populated areas, or while flying without visual reference to the ground.

My point is that his J sounds like a great machine that needs an overhaul.  It's like having a stapler run out of staples.

[romair]

Agree! I was surprised to see how much perceived devaluation exists just because the engine needs an overhaul. On top of that, doing the overhaul seems to be just as expensive as installing a GTN 750 in the airplane. 

Had I not already bought a twin this would've been an easy decision. Overhaul the engine and enjoy the Mooney efficiency for another 15 years. I reached out on this forum as I don't have much experience with selling airplanes so just wanted to find out what would make most sense from a financial perspective. It does seem like it is almost a wash between overhauling and selling or selling as is...

[bonal]

If I had moved to another airplane and due to time constraints could not justify owning both I would market the Mooney as run out sell it and move on. Why do a bunch of work just to break even. 

[ArtVandelay]

If I had moved to another airplane and due to time constraints could not justify owning both I would market the Mooney as run out sell it and move on. Why do a bunch of work just to break even. 

This, and if you can't sell it as a runout, you still have the option of overhauling it. As long as its airworthy, if not airworthy then I think you'll have to overhaul it.

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, romair said:

Agree! I was surprised to see how much perceived devaluation exists just because the engine needs an overhaul. On top of that, doing the overhaul seems to be just as expensive as installing a GTN 750 in the airplane. 

Had I not already bought a twin this would've been an easy decision. Overhaul the engine and enjoy the Mooney efficiency for another 15 years. I reached out on this forum as I don't have much experience with selling airplanes so just wanted to find out what would make most sense from a financial perspective. It does seem like it is almost a wash between overhauling and selling or selling as is...

A cheap service limits overhaul with no new hoses etc is about as much as a GTN-750.  Factory OH with all new stuff fwf is about twice that.  There is a difference.   

[ryoder]

2 hours ago, romair said:

Agree! I was surprised to see how much perceived devaluation exists just because the engine needs an overhaul. On top of that, doing the overhaul seems to be just as expensive as installing a GTN 750 in the airplane. 

Had I not already bought a twin this would've been an easy decision. Overhaul the engine and enjoy the Mooney efficiency for another 15 years. I reached out on this forum as I don't have much experience with selling airplanes so just wanted to find out what would make most sense from a financial perspective. It does seem like it is almost a wash between overhauling and selling or selling as is...

I would go to aopa and see what the vref is with a runout engine.  Put in 2200 since major and you'll see what it's worth to someone who knows they need an overhaul soon.  This vref does assume the engine is airworthy though.

[gsxrpilot]

Is there an add up somewhere with an asking price and pictures for this J? I might be in the market and don't think the required overhaul would be much of a deterrent if it's priced right.