Walmart CEO in Cirrus crash

[Yetti]

There was some broken cloud cover.  Nearest airport button.  Circle to land Tell ATC "unable"  a bunch of times and tell them to clear a path.

[sleepingsquirrel]

23 hours ago, PTK said:

There's no good reason to play monday morning quarterback. He used his judgement to handle the situation the best way he could.

I don't know why he did what he did. But judging by the outcome he did a great job and I respect his decision.

 

Yes! He used his judgement to handle it all right, he red handled it!

[gsxrpilot]

Wasn't the wife/copilot the one who pulled the handle? I wonder if there was discussion ending with "if you won't pull it, I will..."

[aviatoreb]

Nonetheless, the Cirrus had horrible statistics when they came out but improved dramatically in the last two years or so, in large part because of an intensive pilot training campaign, and that campaign includes pull the chute and pull it early and often.  So if that is how Cirrus pilots are being trained, don't fault the pilot, fault the training system.  But their training system as a whole is having good effects.

But wow - 10,000 ft and 11 miles - a sky diver could make that.   Or a flying squirrel.  And 195kts decent "best glide" - what did they do - hey my engine quit I think I will nose dive.

Was the Walmart CEO solo or was he with a CFI?

At least we don't have to worry that the Walmart CEO will be financially distressed by this loss of an aircraft.

[Guest]

On November 7, 2015 at 1:33:15 AM, Shadrach said:

I listened to the tape. He was told to descend at pilots discretion maintain 4000. Only someone not thinking clearly would give up their biggest resource when having engine trouble. I do not expect insurance rates will come down, if people continue to stop flying the plane in a perfectly workable situation and total the ship. We had a guy in Gaithersburg who pulled his shoot on a "door pop" diring an IMC departure. This was an airplane with a 3 axis auto pilot and a "straight and level" button. I wonder if having the chute affects your mentality in an emergency. 

I think the added safety is great. However, the Fayetteville cirrus had 6000' of runway available 10 miles away and 9000' below him. That's a 6:1 glide ratio, which should be a walk in the park in a Cirrus. I think that pulling the chute was riskier than a properly flown approach. Especially given that the wind was likely favorable for reaching the airport.

Ross,

Where did you find the tape?  I'm curious if he actually had and engine failure or just oil pressure indication issues.

Clarence

[Andy95W]

8 hours ago, jetdriven said:

This isn't armchair quarterbacking, it's a statement of fact.   There is no reason a cirrus at 10,000 feet shouldn't be able to easily make an airport that's 11 miles away.  

I agree whole-heartedly, on the surface.  But I don't know all the facts and I certainly wasn't sitting there myself. I could speculate a hundred scenarios that would make him look like either a hero or an idiot.  One of them would probably be true, even. But which one?

There, but for the Grace of God, go I. 

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Ross,

Where did you find the tape?  I'm curious if he actually had and engine failure or just oil pressure indication issues.

Clarence

http://www.liveatc.net/recordings.php

[Shadrach]

In listening to the tape again, he never declared an emergency, nor did he issue a pan, pan.  He sounded cool and calm. He asked the controller for vectors.

Maybe he did not think the issue was as serious as it was.  He reported only that he was losing oil pressure and looking for a place to "go". Drake had a scattered (not broken as was previously stated) layer at 800, but was VFR. ATC cleared him to descend at his discretion to 4000 and then "at or above" 3000 when he was close to 3 miles from the field. At the end of the day, he did what he had to.  I don't think he ever notified the controller that he had an engine failure.  The combination of vectors and his descent rate apparently put him 3 miles from the airport without enough altitude or airspeed to make it work. He likely came to the realization quite a bit before he pulled and rode it a bit further until faced with the notion that the chute would not be an option for much longer..then pulled.  I am not judging him in any way. I am glad he had the BRS option. It would have saved that Bo that had an IMC engine failure up in Connecticut earlier this year. I think there are lots of lessons here. 

A loss of oil pressure in flight is not a "hmm let's scratch our heads and fart around kind of situation, it's a go direct to the nearest airport ASAP situation... there will be time for head scratching and farting around after the plane is on heading and trimmed for best glide.

A loss of oil pressure in flight is in all likelihood going to be an emergency even if it doesn't feel like one when one first discovers the gauge dropping. Might as well make the call now.

ATC vectors are great, but the PIC is far better equipped to know what it will take to get the plane safely to the airport and on the ground. 

 

I personally would not want vectors to final. I would prefer vectors direct to the airport while I am as high as possible.  I would rather deal with excess altitude and airspeed once I'm there rather than try to choreograph the whole process at once and come up short.  If I can get to the inner marker/TDZE at 1000ft AGL it matters little what heading I'm on when I arrive, at that altitude I should be able to make any approach regardless of runway heading or wind direction and speed.

If a BRS were offered for the Mooney airframe, I would seriously consider the upgrade. 

 

[ryoder]

I agree with Shadrach.  Get your ass to the airport and get her down.  Runway, taxiway, anything.  Plenty of options at the airport.  Vectors to final are for practicing the ILS approach, not saving your bacon.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Guy bought a late model SR22 in 08 for less than I paid for my E.  If you all want a rocket propelled ballistic chute so bad-buy a used Cirrus.  It would be one thing to get it done for a new M20, but to pine for one on our vintage planes is goofy.  What do you think this would cost?  About what your planes are worth...and pay a lot of AMU's when the re-packing is due.

 

Whatever floats your boat, but again...the option is there.  Buy a Cirrus.  Not like used Cirrus airframes are scarce...in fact I bet you can get a great deal on a bunch that have the re-pack due.  Have fun with that.

[MyNameIsNobody]

17 hours ago, ryoder said:

I agree with Shadrach.  Get your ass to the airport and get her down.  Runway, taxiway, anything.  Plenty of options at the airport.  Vectors to final are for practicing the ILS approach, not saving your bacon.

Well duh.  OR dive it at multiple thousands of FPM and then go uh oh.  

Who doesn't have a GPS with Direct to nearest selection?  If you don't...Get one.  Less AMU's than a chute...Even if you are wearing one.

[Alan Fox]

On ‎11‎/‎7‎/‎2015‎ ‎2‎:‎35‎:‎54‎, N1395W said:

Maybe he didn't realize he was that close to Drake Field, or that it was even there, until the last minute when it was too late.  I don't know the answer, but I've found something I agree with Peter about.

And his tire valve extension.  I like that, too.

Yes I agree with Peter also.....HooRah   Peter Garmin !!!

[Shadrach]

54 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Well duh.  OR dive it at multiple thousands of FPM and then go uh oh.  

Who doesn't have a GPS with Direct to nearest selection?  If you don't...Get one.  Less AMU's than a chute...Even if you are wearing one.

I think that perhaps he thought if he hauled a$$ to the nearest airport before he totally lost the engine he could get it on the ground before complete power loss. 

[Shadrach]

59 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Well duh.  OR dive it at multiple thousands of FPM and then go uh oh.  

Who doesn't have a GPS with Direct to nearest selection?  If you don't...Get one.  Less AMU's than a chute...Even if you are wearing one.

check out the equipment list on the 2014 SR22.  He was more than capable.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, n74795 said:

Yes I agree with Peter also.....HooRah   Peter Garmin !!!

You guys are off my Christmas card list.

[Guest]

The CAPS system on a Cirrus in not something for CB club members.  Repack each 10 years at about 12K plus the line cutters every 6 years at about 1.5K

Clarence

[jetdriven]

Its baked into the cost when you lease it for a set $ amount per month and get a new one every 4 years.

[Shadrach]

Power by the hour is the way of the future...the way of the future...the way of...

[Guest]

It's still not free, it's in the cost somewhere.  Even the new CMX maintenance system by Cirrus does not go that far into the

future.

Clarence

[ryoder]

The Flight Design CTLS costs $900 to repack.

http://ctflier.com/index.php?/topic/1454-brs-6-year-repack-requirement/page-2

Not bad.  I wonder why Cirrus wants so much?

[MyNameIsNobody]

22 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Power by the hour is the way of the future...the way of the future...the way of...

I just had the urge to watch WestWorld again.  Thank you.

[cnoe]

What nobody is mentioning here is...

... and I am NOT making any proposal or suggestions here... but...

As a Cirrus owner would you rather have:

A) An intact airframe sitting on the runway in need of a $60,000 engine replacement

or

B) A $200K-$700K insurance check in your hand

Pulling the red handle is an automatic "Total Loss" payout. And Cirrus training says "Pull Early / Pull Often".

Think about it.

I'm GLAD my J doesn't have the chute for the simple fact that the insurance rates on these planes is going to go out-of-sight as more and more planes are totaled out due to "low oil pressure".

 

[201er]

Just now, cnoe said:

What nobody is mentioning here is...

... and I am NOT making any proposal or suggestions here... but...

As a Cirrus owner would you rather have:

A) An intact airframe sitting on the runway in need of a $60,000 engine replacement

or

B) A $200K-$700K insurance check in your hand

Pulling the red handle is an automatic "Total Loss" payout. And Cirrus training says "Pull Early / Pull Often".

Think about it.

I'm GLAD my J doesn't have the chute for the simple fact that the insurance rates on these planes is going to go out-of-sight as more and more planes are totaled out due to "low oil pressure".

 

Then at least pull the chute over a field or airport...

[Shadrach]

22 minutes ago, cnoe said:

What nobody is mentioning here is...

... and I am NOT making any proposal or suggestions here... but...

As a Cirrus owner would you rather have:

A) An intact airframe sitting on the runway in need of a $60,000 engine replacement

or

B) A $200K-$700K insurance check in your hand

Pulling the red handle is an automatic "Total Loss" payout. And Cirrus training says "Pull Early / Pull Often".

Think about it.

I'm GLAD my J doesn't have the chute for the simple fact that the insurance rates on these planes is going to go out-of-sight as more and more planes are totaled out due to "low oil pressure".

 

Already mentioned and totally agree. It's a great business plan for Cirrus. I bet there are folks skittish enough to "pull" over a stuck valve. Also consider that planes under canopy in an uncontrolled descent are eventually going to seriously hurt/kill someone on the ground. I am surprised that the chute pull is not accompanied by a loud siren to make folks on the ground aware that an aircraft is coming there way.

[cnoe]

25 minutes ago, daver328 said:

Never consideried the economics of it. 

It's a lot more complicated with a Mooney (or any brand AC other than Cirrus).

As I understand it (in a non-Cirrus), if you lose an engine and glide safely to an airport the insurance pays nothing. If you lose an engine and glide safely back to the airport but forget to put the gear down the insurance pays for a tear-down/inspection. If you lose an engine and land successfully off-field then insurance is going to pay for removal and/or repairs depending on the quality of your landing.

The only way you'll get a big fat insurance check in a Mooney is to CRASH it, which NOBODY wants to do.

In a Cirrus there's no incentive to do anything OTHER than pull the red handle. Red handle = free plane and an extremely high probability of survival.

I do agree with 201er and Ross that they should at least glide somewhere safe before pulling it though.