Reddaero Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 I have a 1986 Mooney 252 in which I have always used Aeroshell 15W50. I'm changing the oil in it this weekend and am thinking of switching to Phillips XC 20/50. What are the pros and cons? I know Camguard is not approved for turbocharged engines but what are the thoughts on using it? I fly my plane regularly, 30 to 40 hours per month. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
peevee Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 (edited) this exact thread was discussed about 1 month ago, I tried to find it but the search engine is maddening to try and filter what I want so I gave up. We use aeroshell 100 Edited September 9, 2015 by peevee Quote
M20F Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 http://mooneyspace.com/topic/16221-turbo-driver-oil-poll/ Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 9, 2015 Report Posted September 9, 2015 You also might want to search for posts by Ed Kollin (I think his handle here is 1TJ) to read about Camguard and especially about what 15W-50 does to copper and seals in our engines (turbo or not). Â There is also a TON of posts over on beechtalk. I use Phillips 20W-50 + Camguard and will continue to do so when I get a turbo. 1 Quote
carqwik Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 My local wrench - a very smart guy and excellent mechanic - swears by Camguard. Told me to put in my t-charged engine since I don't fly everyday or every week.... Damn, another $25 every oil change. I use Aeroshell 15W50. 1 Quote
M20F Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 My local wrench - a very smart guy and excellent mechanic - swears by Camguard. Told me to put in my t-charged engine since I don't fly everyday or every week.... Damn, another $25 every oil change. I use Aeroshell 15W50. Yet the guy who invented Camguard says don't use 15W50.  At the end of the day I think reasonable flying hours and frequent oil changes make a bigger difference than Camguard.  That said I use it and change my oil every 3 months.  For Continentals I really though question even more the need for Camguard. 1 Quote
DonMuncy Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 I use Aeroshell 100 50w. But I'm in Texas. Quote
PTK Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Reddaero, why are you looking to switch. You're already using the best of the best. 15W50 is one excellent aviation oil. It doesn't get any better than that! You certainly fly your engine enough not to worry. Certainly I wouldn't use something not approved. Edited September 10, 2015 by PTK Quote
jetdriven Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 Do some reading.  Camguard has some 25 different chemicals.  15W50 has only one, triphenyl phosphate, which breaks down into hydrochloric acid after exposed to heat and water.  Look at the copper numbers on 15W50 and ask why.   PTK calls Camguard "scam guard" and despite all the test results posted here and other places, declares it a hoax.  Yet he believes corrosion-x works. Imagine the shock when the inventor of both chrmicals is the same, and the formulas are similar. 1 Quote
PTK Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) Do some reading.  Camguard has some 25 different chemicals.  15W50 has only one, triphenyl phosphate, which breaks down into hydrochloric acid after exposed to heat and water.  Look at the copper numbers on 15W50 and ask why.   PTK calls Camguard "scam guard" and despite all the test results posted here and other places, declares it a hoax.  Yet he believes corrosion-x works. Imagine the shock when the inventor of both chrmicals is the same, and the formulas are similar. Maybe you missed, it but as I said, the gentleman certainly flies enough! No need to worry which brand oil to use as long as it's the correct grade for the conditions. Certainly no need to even consider a concoction not even approved for his engine! What are the 25 chemicals it contains? Edited September 10, 2015 by PTK Quote
mike_elliott Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 Ed Kollin will be presenting a wings credit seminar on engine lubrication at the Mooney Summit Oct 4th. I am sure he can provide factual data on best practices for maintaining the life blood of your engine. No, he is not giving a sales presentation, but an education for those that want to decipher the propaganda of the "big oil" manufacture's. Until then, we can still play the "my oil is better/bigger/slippryer/wetter/sexier/easiertouse/betterlooking/bettersmelling" weenie wag game with complete confidence we are 100% right and everyone else blows kerosene by products. 3 Quote
KSMooniac Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 I'll donate extra if you can get a picture of PTK and Ed smiling together! Â Quote
PTK Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) So not only are some recommending the op use an unaproved additive in his engine, they're also trying to say that somehow 15W50 destroys engines!!! Please guys, if you know the truth but are lying shame on you! If you don't know the truth please go educate yourselves! Speak to your favorite oil manufacturer or Lycoming or your favorite oil analysis lab! But please be factual. I know it's the internet and all but try to refrain from disseminating erroneous information and make an honest effort to post facts! Where does the copper come from? Will you please post oil analyses that show copper trends?   Edited September 10, 2015 by PTK Quote
M20F Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=1149666747001 Very good video on the topic including synthetic oils which 15-50W is. Â Quote
peevee Posted September 10, 2015 Report Posted September 10, 2015 So not only are some recommending the op use an unaproved additive in his engine, they're also trying to say that somehow 15W50 destroys engines!!! Please guys, if you know the truth but are lying shame on you! If you don't know the truth please go educate yourselves! Speak to your favorite oil manufacturer or Lycoming or your favorite oil analysis lab! But please be factual. I know it's the internet and all but try to refrain from disseminating erroneous information and make an honest effort to post facts! Where does the copper come from? Will you please post oil analyses that show copper trends?   I really know nothing on the subject and would like to learn but is usually the same, whatever the poster is running is the best choice and tell rest sucks. Quote
jlunseth Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 The argument that made sense to me was this: Â Synthetics work well in cars, where you may go 10,000 miles between oil changes. Â But in our aircraft the oil gets changed at 20-50 hours. Â Modern oils just don't start to break down in that time frame. Â So what is the purpose of using a synth oil at higher cost? Â IÂ use Phillips XC, it is available pretty much everywhere. Â The only reason I could think of for using synth oil here in MN is winter starting, but the fact is the engine is unhappy anytime the temp falls below 40 dF and it needs to be warmed, not for the oil's sake but simpy to get the engine to fire at all. Â So there is not much point in using a synth for winter either. Â 1 Quote
Reddaero Posted September 11, 2015 Author Report Posted September 11, 2015 Thanks to all for the info on what oil to use in my turbocharged 252. Considering everything, I'm headed out to buy a case of AS 15W50. I guess I'll just stick with what has been serving me well all these years 1 Quote
M20F Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 The argument that made sense to me was this:  Synthetics work well in cars, where you may go 10,000 miles between oil changes.  But in our aircraft the oil gets changed at 20-50 hours.  Modern oils just don't start to break down in that time frame.  So what is the purpose of using a synth oil at higher cost?  I use Phillips XC, it is available pretty much everywhere.  The only reason I could think of for using synth oil here in MN is winter starting, but the fact is the engine is unhappy anytime the temp falls below 40 dF and it needs to be warmed, not for the oil's sake but simpy to get the engine to fire at all.  So there is not much point in using a synth for winter either.  Multigrade oil is not all synthetic.  Phillips 20W50 is multigrade and not synthetic.  The main issue with synthetics is they do not handle dirt as well as real oil does.  Car engines run very clean.  Airplane engines run very dirty and no matter how LOP you run you are shooting a lot of gas and other stuff into the oil. I encourage everyone to watch the Mike Busch presentation I linked it is quite informative and fact based. 2 Quote
Marauder Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Multigrade oil is not all synthetic.  Phillips 20W50 is multigrade and not synthetic.  The main issue with synthetics is they do not handle dirt as well as real oil does.  Car engines run very clean.  Airplane engines run very dirty and no matter how LOP you run you are shooting a lot of gas and other stuff into the oil. I encourage everyone to watch the Mike Busch presentation I linked it is quite informative and fact based. I still remember the aviation Mobil 1 experiment back in the 1990s. Was it the hubs that were getting lead sludge building up in them? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
jlunseth Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 Yeah, I know that multigrades are not all synthetic. A big selling point for the synths up in cold country when they first came on the market was that they stayed fluid at lower temps, regardless of the grade, so it was easier to start an engine in the super cold weather we sometimes get up here. I don't know if that is still as true as it was when Mobil 1 first came out. I use a multigrade regular oil in my car most of the time, but if we have a super cold winter and it is time for an oil change I will sometimes go to a synth for the winter, then back to the regular oil when weather comes. The synth is just not worth it for the airplane. It is typical for me to have the oil changed three times during a typical summer, usually somewhere between 30 & 50 hours. I generally will go to 50 hours when I am flying frequently, less if I am not flying frequently. This year has not been typical, the plane has been in the shop for a spark plug harness and your usual long wait for parts, so I have flown quite a lot less. I have still changed the oil twice since spring. In my car I wait for the computer to tell me to change the oil, and that is only about once or twice a year. Quote
PTK Posted September 11, 2015 Report Posted September 11, 2015 (edited) Someone made reference to the Mike Busch webinar on oil. I respect Mike Busch and I enjoy his presentations. I have learned quite a bit from him. "Semi-synthetic oil such as Aeroshell 15W-50 is a blend of multi-vis petroleum-based oil with fully-synthetic oil (in the case of the Aeroshell product, it's a 50-50 mix). Such a blend is an attempt to combine the excellent lubricating properties of a synthetic oil with the excellent cleansing properties of a petroleum oil. For the most part, it achieves these goals." Mike Busch "Aeroshell 15W-50 is an excellent oil which does almost everything well." Mike Busch Edited September 11, 2015 by PTK Quote
jetdriven Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) Here's the whole quote, it's 20 years old if that's an indication...from 1995.  Id say we've come a long way in 20 years. We know much more about oils, corrosion, and how to operate and care for engines  Dogma and preconceived notions remain the same   Source :  http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182909-1.html  For the most part, it achieves these goals. Aeroshell 15W-50 is an excellent oil which does almost everything well. However, like all multi-weight oils, it remains quite thin at room temperatures, and so strips off engine parts readily and leaves them vulnerable to corrosion during periods of disuse. About a year ago, Shell started adding a new corrosion inhibitor to the additive package of Aeroshell 15W-50 in an attempt to remedy this problem. However, wefeel that it's too early to tell just how effective this new additive is.      that new additive is acidic and eats copper flash off of steel parts.   Edited September 12, 2015 by jetdriven 2 Quote
M20F Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 Here's the whole quote, it's 20 years old if that's an indication...from 1995.  Id say we've come a long way in 20 years. We know much more about oils, corrosion, and how to operate and care for engines  Dogma and preconceived notions remain the same   A more recent article where Mike Busch describes his oil choice, frequency, and reasoning. http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_52_thinking_about_oil_changes_196730-1.html Quote
kortopates Posted September 12, 2015 Report Posted September 12, 2015 (edited) Someone made reference to the Mike Busch webinar on oil. I respect Mike Busch and I enjoy his presentations. I have learned quite a bit from him. "Semi-synthetic oil such as Aeroshell 15W-50 is a blend of multi-vis petroleum-based oil with fully-synthetic oil (in the case of the Aeroshell product, it's a 50-50 mix). Such a blend is an attempt to combine the excellent lubricating properties of a synthetic oil with the excellent cleansing properties of a petroleum oil. For the most part, it achieves these goals." Mike Busch "Aeroshell 15W-50 is an excellent oil which does almost everything well." Mike Busch of course that's only part of the story Mike is saying in the video. Here's the whole quote, it's 20 years old if that's an indication...from 1995.  Id say we've come a long way in 20 years. We know much more about oils, corrosion, and how to operate and care for engines  Dogma and preconceived notions remain the same   Source :  http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182909-1.html  For the most part, it achieves these goals. Aeroshell 15W-50 is an excellent oil which does almost everything well. However, like all multi-weight oils, it remains quite thin at room temperatures, and so strips off engine parts readily and leaves them vulnerable to corrosion during periods of disuse. About a year ago, Shell started adding a new corrosion inhibitor to the additive package of Aeroshell 15W-50 in an attempt to remedy this problem. However, wefeel that it's too early to tell just how effective this new additive is.      that new additive is acidic and eats copper flash off of steel parts.   Byron is absolutely right and Mike B says this in his more modern literature. A more recent article where Mike Busch describes his oil choice, frequency, and reasoning. http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/savvy_aviator_52_thinking_about_oil_changes_196730-1.html The above article M20F cites is current with Mike's current recommendations. If you currently are or were to become a SavvyMaintenance client you would receive his specific oil recommendations in a write-up along with all the other services that includes.  For most aircraft, Mike favors Aeroshell W100 monograde oil with one pint of ASL Camguard added at each oil change. But Mike is all about choices, so if your aircraft warrants use of multi-grade oil, he recommends Phillips X/C 20W-5 also with one pint of ASL Camguard added at each oil change. Exxon Elite 20W-50 is an acceptable alternative and much better than Aeroshell 20W-50. In fact, the one oil that he actively discourages use of with our clients is semi-synthetic multi-grade oil Aeroshell 20W-50 because of its 50% PAO that  causes a number of problems including: poor anti-corrosion properties, history of producing high copper readings in oil analysis, history or aggravating TCM starter adapter slippage and history of aggravating oil leaks. His two page article for maintenance clients goes into these recommendation in much more detail to explain these issues and why he prefers a 100% mineral base oil and a mono-grade oil over multi-weight when possible but since its not published publicly I won't either. (Those of you that are SavvyMaintenance clients (and we have a few Mooney's) can ask your Account Manager for a copy of Savvy Oil Recommendations if you haven't already seen it.) Edited September 12, 2015 by kortopates 1 Quote
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