What would you do?

[aaronk25]

http://www.jewellaviation.com/overhauls.htm

All in mine was $16,800. Which included refurbished cam and lifters. New lycoming can and lifters have been plagued with manufacturing problems.

The engine is fantastic! Fast with power flow exhaust 163-165kts. 169kts at 3000ft. 1 qt of oil per 8-10 hours.

Sam Jewell probably will retire in 5 years or so but all he does is overhaul engines.

[AndyFromCB]

  On 6/25/2015 at 5:18 PM, aaronk25 said:

http://www.jewellaviation.com/overhauls.htm

All in mine was $16,800. Which included refurbished cam and lifters. New lycoming can and lifters have been plagued with manufacturing problems.

The engine is fantastic! Fast with power flow exhaust 163-165kts. 169kts at 3000ft. 1 qt of oil per 8-10 hours.

Sam Jewell probably will retire in 5 years or so but all he does is overhaul engines.

 

I would avoid factory engines like plague. I did mine with a local company called Central Cylinder (a company that BTW does more P51 engines than anyone else, if anybody wonders about their quality). You can eat off their shop floor. I dealt directly with the owner and his sons. Factory wanted $58,000 for overhaul, it didn't matter that my turbo, exhaust and everything else were only few hundred hours old and that my cylinders were 1100 hours old and running 78/80 compression. 

 

My total cost for the overhaul, including all new pistons, rings, springs, valves, camshaft, lifters, all to new limits, $32,000. That's $26 less than factory and about $20K less than what big name shops wanted. I ask them how they do it so cheap. He said he prices parts, labor plus profit instead of looking at Lycoming price sheet. Keep in mind that Bravo's engine is nothing special, your run of the mill, parallel valve 250hp mill in its natural aspirated form. Makes senses to me.

 

Best part of dealing with them? I saw a lot of crankshafts from big name shops being turned. Yes, most big name shops outsource their crank work to them. I wonder how much those people are paying. Good warranty too and unlike Lycoming, according to our local flight school, they actually stand behind it: 24 months/1000 hours.

[jetdriven]

  On 6/25/2015 at 5:18 PM, aaronk25 said:

http://www.jewellaviation.com/overhauls.htm

All in mine was $16,800. Which included refurbished cam and lifters. New lycoming can and lifters have been plagued with manufacturing problems.

The engine is fantastic! Fast with power flow exhaust 163-165kts. 169kts at 3000ft. 1 qt of oil per 8-10 hours.

Sam Jewell probably will retire in 5 years or so but all he does is overhaul engines.[/quote

Ours has new cylinders and a roller can, but cost a smooth ten grand more.

[PTK]

Sounds about right doesn't it? New cylinders and cam is about 10K.

 

This tells me that factory is really an excellent value. Not that much more expensive than field?!

[aaronk25]

  On 6/25/2015 at 7:10 PM, PTK said:

Sounds about right doesn't it? New cylinders and cam is about 10K.

This tells me that factory is really an excellent value. Not that much more expensive than field?!

Cylinders for wide angular valve io360 are almost 10k alone.

The price difference between new lycoming cams and remanufactured are negligible, but the only reman cams that get reused are micd at less than three thousands of a inch and then re ground and nitrated.

The known is if the cam made it one cycle the metal is good and will most likely make it another.

I had a brand new lycoming cam make metal in 2 years and 400 hours where it was apparent it was manufactured without the proper hardness.

Many engine shops are recommending re-man cam shafts instead of new do to poor quality products coming from lycoming.

Getting a good value order mean cutting corners.....just the same as overpaying doesn't mean your getting a better engine.

[aaronk25]

Factory new io360 is 48k and a reman lycoming is $34k

[KSMooniac]

I was looking through the records of my salvage plane yesterday and saw a receipt for a factory overhaul exchange for $10,500 in 1995.    Hard to believe that price has tripled in 20 years.

[PTK]

Personally I'm not so quick to dismiss the factory reman in favor of a field overhaul.

 

The question that I have is regarding the mags. Are there other options besides the slick mags in the IO360A3B6? (non D)

[KSMooniac]

Sure, you can put Bendix mags on as they're approved.  However since Bendix is owned by Lycoming's competitor, they ship their engines with Slicks.  If I got a factory engine I'd run it a few hundred hours to see if it is a keeper or not, then switch to Bendix.  

 

Of course I won't buy a factory engine if I can help it since a superior product can be had in the aftermarket...

[jetdriven]

Yep at 88 hours. Then at 7 hours on those one quit. Kelly strikes again. Adjusted the points and the last 350 hours have been good. My boss finally came around when his second slick in 2 years quit. After its all said and done it's not much more than the cost of one new slick mag. But you're getting two.

tcm wiser up now they take slicks for cores. Now it's 600$ a side instead of a grand.

[Wildhorsesracing]

  On 6/25/2015 at 12:08 PM, triple8s said:

Buy a used mid-time engine keep my old one, fly, save, rebuild the old one a little at a time paying as I went.

 

That would be my plan as well - I am not a big fan of urinating money away.  If you plan on keeping the plane, do what you would personally want in the plane, but if you are thinking about selling a good used 1000 hr engine is better than a crack fixed 1500 hr engine...

 

And having a rebuildable core when selling adds value as well - or sell it separately!

[skyjunkie]

I will look into that option as well. Suggestions for places to find one? TAP/Controller/web searches don't seem to have a lot of inventory to pick from.

[Alan Fox]

I was under the impression that Factory remans came with roller cams.....Am I mistaken???

[Wildhorsesracing]

Try Barnstormers or Ebay - you have to be patient though...

[mike_elliott]

  On 6/25/2015 at 7:31 PM, aaronk25 said:

Factory new io360 is 48k and a reman lycoming is $34k

IF you have a core you can trade in...if not, factory new is 77K! 

[jetdriven]

  On 6/26/2015 at 12:12 PM, Wildhorsesracing said:

That would be my plan as well - I am not a big fan of urinating money away.  If you plan on keeping the plane, do what you would personally want in the plane, but if you are thinking about selling a good used 1000 hr engine is better than a crack fixed 1500 hr engine...

 

And having a rebuildable core when selling adds value as well - or sell it separately!

 

That sounds like a bad option the more I think of it. Theres is a half chance the engine you are buying has spalled lifters. So then you paid 18-20 grand for an engine thats really no better than you have.

[M20F]

  On 6/27/2015 at 3:38 PM, jetdriven said:

That sounds like a bad option the more I think of it. Theres is a half chance the engine you are buying has spalled lifters. So then you paid 18-20 grand for an engine thats really no better than you have.

It is easy enough if you pull a cylinder to get a good view of the crank and cam with a bore scope to determine condition. If you go with a replacement you have to make sure all your accessories are going to work on it and verify any STC'S are not serial number specific.

[Shadrach]

Same issue about 5 years ago with my 67 F. I had 880SMOH at the time. I removed the engine and trucked it to Aero Engines of Winchester. Case overhauled and engine IRAN'd for about $4,500 all in.

300+hrs later the engine is running beautifully.

I can't tell you how many people told me it was time to drop $30K+ on a new engine.

Considering that my engine was 11 years old and was flown sparsely some years. I expected a lot of bad news. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the internals were in fine condition save for a few almost microscopic pits on 2 of the lifters (we replaced all lifters as a prophylactic measure)

It's a tough call. I knew my engine and its internals were original to the airplane. The total time on my cam and crank is 2957 and 48years. I have a large degree of confidence in these components. I'm not sure that I would be as confident in any replacement part.

It's your call on whether you think your engine is worth opening up? The gamble is that you find corrosion and or a spalled cam.

Whatever you decide, don't let anyone convince that just throwing money at the problem will offer you the best solution. Throwing money at the situation is a given. More money will not necessarily yield a better value in this situation...

[jetdriven]

  On 6/27/2015 at 4:56 PM, M20F said:

It is easy enough if you pull a cylinder to get a good view of the crank and cam with a bore scope to determine condition. If you go with a replacement you have to make sure all your accessories are going to work on it and verify any STC'S are not serial number specific.

I pulled a cylinder and looked at it real good when I got my plane, it still spalled 3 lifters 250 hours later. Besides, convince Wentworth to take back an engine you just took apart to look at. Iirc they don't offer cash refunds of any sort.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but IDK if buying an engine for 15-20 grand that's definitely been sitting and maybe crashed, could ever be better than overhauling what you got for the same money.

[Alan Fox]

I sell used aircraft parts , That being said , I sell them relatively cheap....I will not allow a customer to remove cylinders to inspect the innards , Accessories yes , but jugs no.....I also generally like to sell to rebuilders , as this eliminates my liability on these matters....

[drapo]

If you really need to replace the engine: http://www.barnstormers.com/listing.php?id=1030026

 

I have no ties to that seller and don't know the details, but if I had to make that decision, it would be worth a call!

[jetdriven]

That's a unknown mixed-cylinder overhaul. Interestingly the ad says it was overhauled 06/15 but the paperwork shows it was overhauled 11/13. So, factory overhaul price for a reworked cylinder engine that's been sitting two years.

But there may be something said for selling your existing engine and buying that one. Yours is probably worth 10k like it is. But that's still 15K difference, which is what you can get yours rebuilt just like that one is.

[mpg]

  On 6/27/2015 at 9:49 PM, Shadrach said:

Same issue about 5 years ago with my 67 F. I had 880SMOH at the time. I removed the engine and trucked it to Aero Engines of Winchester. Case overhauled and engine IRAN'd for about $4,500 all in.

300+hrs later the engine is running beautifully.

I can't tell you how many people told me it was time to drop $30K+ on a new engine.

Considering that my engine was 11 years old and was flown sparsely some years. I expected a lot of bad news. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that the internals were in fine condition save for a few almost microscopic pits on 2 of the lifters (we replaced all lifters as a prophylactic measure)

It's a tough call. I knew my engine and its internals were original to the airplane. The total time on my cam and crank is 2957 and 48years. I have a large degree of confidence in these components. I'm not sure that I would be as confident in any replacement part.

It's your call on whether you think your engine is worth opening up? The gamble is that you find corrosion and or a spalled cam.

Whatever you decide, don't let anyone convince that just throwing money at the problem will offer you the best solution. Throwing money at the situation is a given. More money will not necessarily yield a better value in this situation...

Although I like this advice best,,,,    their is this...

 

 

 

 

IO360A1A Engine

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[mschmuff]

I too would stay away from factory new and reman.  Too many horror stories for so much money.  If you can get everything done for $16,800 at Jewell - run with it!!  Like someone said, I wouldn't bandaid it and try to sell it - it will come back and bite you in the ass!!

I also like the idea of a used engine if you don't want to spend $16k.  We purchased a 600hr engine from Wentworth for $14K.  They gave us $5k for the core and it cost $1,500 to install.  All in $10,500!!

Good luck!

[skyjunkie]

I appreciate the input.

 

I looked into that engine listed by MPG, which I was pretty excited about. The engine ended having a bit of a colorful history. It came from an aircraft in a foreign country, complete with foreign engine log. 

 

Jewell took a look at the case in a picture and said the case was not repairable. They must have gotten wind that they have a good name, the quote I got was right in the same 26-27k ball park as Tims in Long beach.

 

I have a feeler out with Wentworth. My understanding is that an A1A must be replaced with an A1A. I do not know how much variance is allowed between subfamilies of the engine.