skyjunkie Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Long time Lurker, I have an F with that has developed the infamous crank case crack and is leaking oil. its at 1500 Hrs SMO. My options seem to be: 1.) Have the engine torn down and have the case welded. 2.) Option 1 and consider an overhaul being that the engine is torn down already. 3.) Consider an exchange overhauled unit from Air power or Pen Yan aero. 4.) Other? Thanks for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Once you go with step 1 you may have to proceed with step 2 based on what the inside look like. How many hours on the cylinders, do you plan on selling the plane at some point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Once you go with step 1 you may have to proceed with step 2 based on what the inside look like. How many hours on the cylinders, do you plan on selling the plane at some point? I concur. There are mandatory replacement items when you split the case, so you'll already be buying some parts that count towards an overhaul. If your cylinders are first-run and still in good shape, I'd go ahead and get them overhauled in conjunction with doing the rest of the bottom end. The R&R and case split will rack up significant labor hours that will have to be repeated soon if you don't overhaul now, so if it is a keeper it makes sense to just pay that labor once. If you plan on selling it soon, it might be more economical to just get the case fixed and put it back in service. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanti Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'd trade it in for a factory reman if that's an option. Seems counterintuitive to pay for all that labor to take apart and refurbish the case and end up with a 1,500 hour engine with a welded case. best Tim 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Check the date, if its over 35 years Lycoming wont take it back for a core. Air Power sells factory Lycoming engines. Id send it to a top shop like Zephyr and have it overhauled. If selling soon, try Custom Airmotive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyjunkie Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I was planning on selling and upgrading sometime next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 The case repairs are not always long lasting , Superior is now making new cases , not sure of the cost.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'd go with a factory reman as well. Weather it's a keeper or you plan on selling it in the short term is irrelevant imo. What you do,however, will be as relevant to you if you keep it as it'd be to a buyer if you sell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'd go with a factory reman as well. Weather it's a keeper or you plan on selling it in the short term is irrelevant imo. What you do will be very relevant to a buyer however. might not be an economical option, as I don't think Lyc will take a cracked case engine as core. Besides, ask Byron about their reman's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N33GG Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 First, pour yourself a tall stiff drink... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 might not be an economical option, as I don't think Lyc will take a cracked case engine as core. Besides, ask Byron about their reman's... It's not about being economical. Neither option is economical. It's a choice between pay now or pay later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVIDWH Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Home Depot sells JB Weld. Office Depot sells "For Sale " signs. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyjunkie Posted June 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 It has been a while since I have looked at the market, How significant is the difference in resale is there between a plane with an engine that has been overhauled from zephyr/custom automotive etc vs a factory unit? Say with 150 hrs SMO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 Welcome aboard, Data point: I went with factory reman, not knowing if I would keep her or not... Only the next owner will be able to tell you which is better for him and his VP of Finance. Another part of the answer includes what does the panel, paint and fuel tanks look like? If you'll be selling a flying cockroach, it may be a good time to cut your losses and move on. Spend the least to keep it airworthy. Sell. Use money as down payment on your dream machine. Get instrument rated while in between planes. Know that bad things happen to good planes too. That is why some dream machines get 310hp engines with their TopProp... How is that? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted June 24, 2015 Report Share Posted June 24, 2015 So Skyjunkie , by now you must realize that this question was an exercise in futility....... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Hmmm, I know a guy that can help part out a Mooney... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I'd trade it in for a factory reman if that's an option. Seems counterintuitive to pay for all that labor to take apart and refurbish the case and end up with a 1,500 hour engine with a welded case. best Tim Overhaul, factory reman, etc. are all somewhat dubious. To count as an overhaul as example you need to do the cylinders, if the OP has low time good cylinders is it really worth redoing them to put the word overhaul in the book? In a lot of cases a repair and return is a lot cheaper and from a mechanical perspective is just as good as doing an overhaul. When Mike Bush says he is 2000hrs past TBO he isn't saying he did nothing to the engine, just a lot of repair/return over time versus doing a major overhaul. To really know which way to go you need to know when the cam/crank were last replaced, try to get an idea of their condition today, what is the time on the cylinders, etc. and most importantly what is your long term plan for the plane. If the idea is to sell a plane in 18 months or less than from a financial perspective pumping $30-40k into a factory reman is going to be a loser. Getting the case welded is probably $3-6K and while you won't get that in the sale at least you lose a lot less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triple8s Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Buy a used mid-time engine keep my old one, fly, save, rebuild the old one a little at a time paying as I went. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 The original poster said that he was planning to sell next year and the engine has 1500 hours. The easiest math is to look at the price differential between repairing your engine vs. the absolute, LEAST expensive overhaul out there. Offset that with the resale of your airplane with a 1500 hour engine vs. a fresh overhaul. Jimmy Garrison has a couple of price references that could help, but the one I just looked at says about a $20,000 difference in value at selling. Repairing your existing engine will be probably $5k - $10k (my assumption). You can probably get yours overhauled (and case repaired) for about $25,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Do the right thing. Whoever buys your plane will probably research and find this thread. There are several posts here already that are flags for me never to buy a plane from those people. Cheap routes that just hide the problem equate to negligence in my opinion. Try to separate the issue of seeking the plane from what needs to be done. Just my 2 cents 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_elliott Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 It's not about being economical. Neither option is economical. It's a choice between pay now or pay later. Your right, neither is economical. Factory new is about 77K for a new IO360 engine without core, or more than the value of the airplane, (http://www.airpowerinc.com/productcart/pc/TLEngineDetail.asp?catID=33&prodID=9832) the other is about 25K for a proper field overhaul. One has to recognize 77K just might buy a brand shiny new piece of junk, that makes metal in less than 200 hours, but will have a zero time logbook, and it will have a warranty one can battle with. Prior to buying my F model in 99, it had a case crack repair done on it in 97. It is still going strong, as the weak point around #2 cyl in the io360 was addressed with the repair. Properly repaired they can last, and be better than new. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Do the right thing. Whoever buys your plane will probably research and find this thread. There are several posts here already that are flags for me never to buy a plane from those people. Cheap routes that just hide the problem equate to negligence in my opinion. Try to separate the issue of seeking the plane from what needs to be done. Just my 2 cents I don't think anyone is suggesting hiding the problem just repairing what needs to be repaired. Mike Elliot gives a good example. If the issue is a crack in the case why would redoing the cylinders and other parts be beneficial if they don't actually need it? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't think anyone is suggesting hiding the problem just repairing what needs to be repaired. Mike Elliot gives a good example. If the issue is a crack in the case why would redoing the cylinders and other parts be beneficial if they don't actually need it? I think the economic decision relates to the hours of labor to remove, dis-assemble, re-assemble, and re-install the engine. On a 200 hr engine with a case crack, sure, it is an easy decision to fix the crack and put it back together. On a 1500 hr engine, now it is more complicated. For just a little more effort it can be overhauled, and if the cylinders are still good then they can be overhauled vs. buying new ones to avoid unnecessary cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M20F Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I think the economic decision relates to the hours of labor to remove, dis-assemble, re-assemble, and re-install the engine. On a 200 hr engine with a case crack, sure, it is an easy decision to fix the crack and put it back together. On a 1500 hr engine, now it is more complicated. For just a little more effort it can be overhauled, and if the cylinders are still good then they can be overhauled vs. buying new ones to avoid unnecessary cost. The only thing that complicates it is if you want the word "overhaul" in the book. The bottom requires removal the top doesn't. Thus if you didn't do the cylinders there should be minimal incremental expense. We have no idea from the original poster if the cylinders are also 1500hrs or maybe they are only 200hrs. IRAN works just as well on engines as it does on anything else. I am not advocating short cuts but it is silly IMHO to spend money to fix things that don't need to be fixed just so you can meet the minimum requirements for the word "overhaul". 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 Jewell aviation was less than all the others for an overhaul and aaronk25 seems happy with it. Run that cost by us again? If it's really 13-15K you'll add more value than it costs. Or pull it, tear it down and fix the case, new cam and lifters reassemble. Classic IRAN. But you have a 1500 hour engine u just put 8K into which basically is going to be priced as runout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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