Collapsed Nose Gear

[AndyFromCB]

Hmmmmm.  I don't necessarily agree.

 

I know a guy who can't fly a tail-dragger worth a darn, but he "flies it onto the ground" regularly basically using C-172 skills.  He can't do a full stall three-point to save his arse.

 

Wheel landings really don't require much finese at all, but perfectly timing the three point.....ya gotta know your plane.

 

Flying it into the ground is not a wheel landing, that's a 2 1/2 point landing. 3 point are much easier because they to not require precision attitude control. You're essentially becoming a parachute from anywhere from 3 feet up on lower. A proper wheel landing takes much more finesse than any 3 pointer. A guy who can wheel land, can skim the water with wheels for the entire length of the lake. Wheel landings require speed and altitude precision in 1/10th the units than a 3 pointer requires. A good wheel landing, you can't even tell the plane touched down. 

 

I have no idea what you mean you have to know your airplane for a 3 pointer. Put it 3 feet over the runway, and keep on pulling back, you got yourself a 3 pointer. A wheel landing requires so much more finesse to arrest the rate of sink at the last moment without too much elevator movement so that the last 3 inches of movement happen over few hundred feet. A tail does not move upon touchdown, it remains parallel to the runway.

[Shadrach]

Jim, I'm not so sure the difference is really substantial.

Consider a 500 nm trip. In round numbers figure 165 knots TAS in a J it translates to 3 hours and 5 minutes. In a missile at 175 knots the same trip would take about 5 min short of 3 hours.

Correct my math if you need to but 10 or 15 min either way on a 500 nm trip is insignificant. And I haven't even mentioned the increased fuel costs.

You see block speeds of 165kts in a J model? I think that's way above average for that model.

I think block speeds for those 2 birds is more like 20kts apart...say 158 vs 178. The time difference is probably closer to 25 mins for a 500nm trip. 25kt headwinds would widen the gap more and more. I hate to fly at anything less than 130kts across the ground. It sure would be nice to 48kt margin over Mother Nature.

Edit - Andy beat me to it.

[Shadrach]

Except that a 3-point landing in a tail wheel is often a sign of skill, while in a nosewheel it's a bad landing and often leads to a go around for a second attempt to get it right.

I think that wheel landings are much harder than three pointers in the Decathlon.

[Mooneymite]

Flying it into the ground is not a wheel landing, that's a 2 1/2 point landing.

Agreed.

But the practicioner insists he's perfected wheel landings because he touches on mains first.

Similarly, there are those who swear they've perfected the three point because they manage to crash all three wheels onto the ground simultaneously.

You description of a three pointer doesn't match mine. The "perfect" three pointer touches light as a feather without the tail wheel (or mains) touching first as often happens using the technique you describe. Pretty much all the flying energy is dissapated at touchdown.

I would also add that the ease/difficulty of wheel/three point is significantly affected by the geometry of the particular tail dragger you're flying. Some tail draggers I've flown just land one way better than the other.

[AndyFromCB]

Agreed.

But the practicioner insists he's perfected wheel landings because he touches on mains first.

Similarly, there are those who swear they've perfected the three point because they manage to crash all three wheels onto the ground simultaneously.

You description of a three pointer doesn't match mine. The "perfect" three pointer touches light as a feather without the tail wheel (or mains) touching first as often happens using the technique you describe. Pretty much all the flying energy is dissapated at touchdown.

I would also add that the ease/difficulty of wheel/three point is significantly affected by the geometry of the particular tail dragger you're flying. Some tail draggers I've flown just land one way better than the other.

 

I see what you mean. He flies like I do, then ;-) But you know, any landing you can take off from again is a great landing…But I know what you mean...

[Mooneymite]

I see what you mean. He flies like I do, then ;-) But you know, any landing you can take off from again is a great landing…But I know what you mean...

Andy, would you agree that flying three point landings in a tail dragger is a good prequel to learning to land a Mooney better since the pilot learns to keep the nose up throughout the landing?

[AndyFromCB]

Andy, would you agree that flying three point landings in a tail dragger is a good prequel to learning to land a Mooney better since the pilot learns to keep the nose up throughout the landing?

 

I think flying a taildragger makes everybody a much better pilot. Sure made me realize what the rudder is for. I have about 50 hours or so in a Super D I was a partner in till it lost an engine and ended up in Platte River. Ever seen a plane being towed by an airboat?

[Mooneymite]

I think flying a taildragger makes everybody a much better pilot. Sure made me realize what the rudder is for. I have about 50 hours or so in a Super D I was a partner in till it lost an engine and ended up in Platte River. Ever seen a plane being towed by an airboat?

 

No.....

 

We think losing a nose gear is bad, but in the big scheme.....

[mooniac15u]

Hank,

Since I have been on here (right at two years) a guy started a thread and explained his nose gear collapse during taxi on a Mooney which was "new" to him ... and explained the plane was new to him because his previous Mooney had a nose gear collapse on taxi too? He said he was going to P, C or B brand ... because of it. It's the only case (or two cases) I've heard of ... (Not the J bar unlatching) of a true nose gear collapse.

Can't recall the title of the thread? Anyone remember?

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/10885-check-your-landing-gear-closely/

[philiplane]

Mooneys don't "bounce" upon landing, unless you are too fast. And try to force it onto the ground. 

 

A bounce requires excess energy to occur, so blaming nose gear collapses on the long-body large engine design is like blaming spoons for making people fat...

 

And a collapse during taxi means the landing gear has been neglected, which is common among Mooneys, because Mooney owners tend to be frugal