Guitarmaster Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Ok. I need some help here. It would seem Riley is in need of some new radios. As of right now, she has dual MAC1700, an ADF, RMI and KLN89 GPS. King 525 HSI. All round flight instruments. The MACs are getting repaired (again) and I am thinking it is not worth it to keep throwing money at a 40 year-old radio. Here's my predicament, I have little cash right now, but I can float a loan easy enough. The Avionics guy quoted me $16000 from the hip for a 430W and KT-74. Understand, there is a massive amount of re-wiring that will have to be done and he is quoting $3000 for labor. This being said, I think he is a bit high. I calculate it should be around $14,000. That would leave me with a 430W and a MAC 1700 for backup. This would make it ADS-b complaint and give me the ability to fly all RNAV approaches; something I can't do right now. I regularly fly into KMDW and when they are using 22L, the RNAV is the only approach. Or... I can go with a GNC255A and the Stratus ESG later. The 255A would be about $6000 installed and the ESG about $4200. That satisfies the ADS-b mandate. Of course, that leaves me without the ability to fly RNAV stuff. I know it's a hard question because everyone has different needs, but, What say you? I understand the GTN series is great, but it's just not happening. Second. Since I would be taking a loan for all this, what should I reasonably expect on cost for an Aspen Pro retrofit? I am non-autopilot, so I was thinking around $13000. Would safe to assume? The King HSI will probably quit sometime (soon with my luck) and I know they are fairly expensive to repair. So, Go big or go home is one line of thinking! There will be a lot of removals and should be a pretty decent amount of trade-in value so that will bring it down a little. Thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Yes, I think the "from the hip" estimate may be on the high side. The 430 is a great nav/com, but it is getting old. Since no one but Garmin can maintain them, if Garmin decides to stop supporting them, or makes supporting them too pricey you (and a lot of us) are in a pickle when it stops working. Nothing lasts forever, so why start with something old? I hate to take on debt for a hobby, so consider doing it in "little bites", but pay as you go. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I agree with Gus. I have a 430W, but I wouldn't pay to install one at this point. If you're spending that much, go with a GTN650. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I agree with Gus. I have a 430W, but I wouldn't pay to install one at this point. If you're spending that much, go with a GTN650. Install costs should be the same, so given that overhead, I agree...650 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Riley is where Vic was... Here are my thoughts on the stuff you mentioned: The Avionics guy quoted me $16000 from the hip for a 430W and KT-74. I think that is a bit high. I see 430Ws showing up for around $7k from people upgrading to GTNs. With the KT-74 street prices around $2,600, I agree $14k is much closer to the right installed price. I agree with the others. The 430s are nice, but the GTN 650 is what you want. I can go with a GNC255A and the Stratus ESG later. The 255A would be about $6000 installed and the ESG about $4200. My plane was VOR only until I upgraded to the GTN. I would not go non-GPS knowing what I know now. Since I would be taking a loan for all this, what should I reasonably expect on cost for an Aspen Pro retrofit? I am non-autopilot, so I was thinking around $13000. Would safe to assume? I think if you shop around you may be able to get one installed for $11k - $12k. If Riley is tight for panel space, the Aspen will free up the VSI spot for you. If you want to compare notes on upgrade costs, let me know. I did my upgrades in the Fall of 2012, but it should help show reasonable install costs. I did get a number of different quotes from shops around me. I know our planes are pretty close to the same age. As you probably know, I did the big jump with the avionics. Never regretted the decision. My situation was a bit different. I have owned my F since 1991 and have been steadily saving for an avionics reserve for years. So, other than a shaky hand as I was writing the check for the avionics bill, I have been enjoying the heck out of the avionics and the fact Vic is much more capable. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Also post some pictures of your panel. This is what mine looked like: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MB65E Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 The 430w approvals can be more difficult than the 530ws. Looks for some used stuff from someone who has recently bit the 750 round! What TXP did you say you have? The new king TXP with Adsb should be a nice solution. I found a used 330s and plan on doing the ES mod to get my ADSb. Sounds like your back in the saddle and keeping the bird. Nice choice! I'd spend the least amount and try to dodge the loan. However, The 650 is a nice unit. Most of the bugs are now gone. A 650 and a simple Aspen solution should keep the "other airplane thoughts" at bay for a long time!! Good luck!! -Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 , The 650 is a nice unit. Most of the bugs are now gone. A 650 and a simple Aspen solution should keep the "other airplane thoughts" at bay for a long time!! Good luck!! -Matt Avionics are not investments, so unless you plan on keeping the plane for a very long time, I would not do it. But spending 20 AMUs spread over 10 years is "only" 2 AMUs per year, and 10+ years of use you will get your money's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanti Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I feel like this question is more about personal finance. From the avionics perspective, I have the GTN 750/2 panel Aspen/Garmin adsb/wx/traffic setup in my Bonanza and its awesome. Clear upgrade in terms of safety and workload/stress reduction. That being said, I paid cash. If something unexpected happens to my financial situation, I'll sell the plane at a significant loss and somebody else will get a really, really good deal. I would only borrow money for airplane refurbishment if I was using the plane for business and could correspondingly write off my flying expenses against my employment income. good luck Tim 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVIDWH Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 GTN 750 Couldn't leave home without it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Bang for the buck...I'd look for a used GNS430W that has been removed for someone else's upgrade. My guess is 1/2 the expense. You will love being cleared Direct most of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy95W Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Also post some pictures of your panel. This is what mine looked like: Sure hope you kept the KR-86 ADF when you did your upgrade. Those are going for almost $200 on eBay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron McBride Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Marauder Where did you get the instrument panel cover? Do you think that it would fit my 69F? I have a stock windshield. Do you like this cover? Thank You Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Sure hope you kept the KR-86 ADF when you did your upgrade. Those are going for almost $200 on eBay! One thing I do miss about having an ADF; listening to my favorite sports games on the old AM frequencies... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Marauder Where did you get the instrument panel cover? Do you think that it would fit my 69F? I have a stock windshield. Do you like this cover? Thank You Ron Ron -- which cover are you talking about? The glare shield? If so, it is the factory original one. There is an extension piece in place. It was installed when the 201 windshield was installed. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I agree with Tim. It makes no fiscal sense to borrow money for avionics upgrades if it can't be depreciated on some schedule to match acquisition costs with income it helps generate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piloto Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 You may want to look at installing a used G530W for $8K. The display is bigger and has the heading arc display mode which is very handy on vectored approaches. They are approved for ADS-B GPS source. José Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 I agree with Tim. It makes no fiscal sense to borrow money for avionics upgrades if it can't be depreciated on some schedule to match acquisition costs with income it helps generate. It comes down to two things: do you have the cash available? Is spending it on avionics right now the best use for it? By your logic, Peter, only those few using airplanes for business would buy them, much less upgrade anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 It comes down to two things: do you have the cash available? Is spending it on avionics right now the best use for it? By your logic, Peter, only those few using airplanes for business would buy them, much less upgrade anything. Not what I said. What I said is don't borrow the money and pay interest on top of not being able to depreciate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Not what I said. What I said is don't borrow the money and pay interest on top of not being able to depreciate it. Getting a loan at 3-4% is preferable to selling investments! paying 15% capital gains tax and losing 6-8% annual growth plus dividends. Make it a home equity loan and write off the interest. It's not a bad approach if you can repay the balance if "something happens." Got to think things through all the way . . . Options, alternatives, Plan B and C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guitarmaster Posted May 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ok. What it finally came down to is, "nice to have" and, "need to have." The MAC 1700's were sent off to the avionics shop and only one was serviceable. Or at least worth servicing. After consideration, the 430W seems like a lot of money for a used piece of equipment. As much as I would like to be able to shoot GPS approaches, the reality is, it is not really necessary right now. The GNC255A is really attractive, but it's $3800+$3000 installation. $6800 for only one nav/comm. As I said earlier, a loan was not out of the realm of possibilities, but the longer I looked at it, the less palatable it became. What I really need is a NAV/COMM to do ILS stuff and VOR approaches. Any nav/comm other than a KX170(5)b would require major rewiring of the plane. Enter something I have not heard of before. The MX170C. After seeing this radio on Spruce, I called the manufacturer and had a long talk with Vic. Turns out there are thousands out there flying and what seem to be few problems. It is a direct, slip-in replacement for the 170b, but a brand-new unit with a warranty. They are not fancy. But good Tx power and seeming good reliability. I am aware of the fact they are only serviced at the manufacturer. The history of the manufacturer is another story, and not a bad one. They seem to sell fast on eBay for almost the retail price of $2600. I don't need a IFR WGPS right now and I don't need ADS-b at the moment. I need good, solid nav/comms. I ordered two of them. $2400ea no tax or shipping. I'll slip them in when they get here and let you all know the result! I just couldn't bring myself to take a loan for what amounts to basically a toy. Hopefully these radios will bring years of good service. I learned some very interesting stuff about ADS-b. I will fill you in later! Cheers! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 The GNC255A is really attractive, but it's $3800+$3000 installation. $6800 for only one nav/comm. Actually it's more like $5400... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I think you made the right choice for you. Enjoy the mooney! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryoder Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 I bought a MX170C from Sarasota locally for 1850. The user interface is a little weird but it works great and slides in in about five minutes. I have a Apollo SL30 as number one and love it. I rarely use number two since the Apollo can monitor atis and even a second vor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 Ok. What it finally came down to is, "nice to have" and, "need to have." The MAC 1700's were sent off to the avionics shop and only one was serviceable. Or at least worth servicing. After consideration, the 430W seems like a lot of money for a used piece of equipment. As much as I would like to be able to shoot GPS approaches, the reality is, it is not really necessary right now. The GNC255A is really attractive, but it's $3800+$3000 installation. $6800 for only one nav/comm. As I said earlier, a loan was not out of the realm of possibilities, but the longer I looked at it, the less palatable it became. What I really need is a NAV/COMM to do ILS stuff and VOR approaches. Any nav/comm other than a KX170(5)b would require major rewiring of the plane. Enter something I have not heard of before. The MX170C. After seeing this radio on Spruce, I called the manufacturer and had a long talk with Vic. Turns out there are thousands out there flying and what seem to be few problems. It is a direct, slip-in replacement for the 170b, but a brand-new unit with a warranty. They are not fancy. But good Tx power and seeming good reliability. I am aware of the fact they are only serviced at the manufacturer. The history of the manufacturer is another story, and not a bad one. They seem to sell fast on eBay for almost the retail price of $2600. I don't need a IFR WGPS right now and I don't need ADS-b at the moment. I need good, solid nav/comms. I ordered two of them. $2400ea no tax or shipping. I'll slip them in when they get here and let you all know the result! I just couldn't bring myself to take a loan for what amounts to basically a toy. Hopefully these radios will bring years of good service. I learned some very interesting stuff about ADS-b. I will fill you in later! Cheers! Good for you! I had a MX-170B in the panel when my KX-170B decided to shred its plastic tuning mechanism for the 3rd time. The MX replacement was able to broadcast and receive fine. The Nav signals were just as good as the original King if not slightly better. In the 15 years I owned it, it went back twice for service. Once for losing memory due to a failed internal battery and another time for the display flickering. They are prone to issues with the original rack. So, if your problems are not with the radio you are replacing, you may still issues even with the replacement radio. For the price you can't beat them. Their service was fine and reasonable. Let us know how it works out. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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