to buy or not to buy

[WhiskeyDelta]

Scenerio:  M20K 231 79 model   2500tt  200sfoh  200 spoh

I have been reading as many forum posts as I can over the past few weeks on others pre-purchase decision process and the great advice that has been given.   Even with all this knowledge I can't reach a decision on if I should purchase a known basket case in need of some TLC.

About me,  100 hour pilot not in a hurry to buy a plane and am ok with buying one that needs work and probably won't be flying for a few months while its being repaired/upgraded.

Ok so now to the result of an inspection on the plane  by a Mooney service center.

Landing gear retract/extend rods boots torn  (Left and Right)

 

Left and right landing gear trusses have excessive rust/corrosion.

Oil leak at base of starter.

 

Paint and Interior are factory original.  Needs paint but airframe seems solid and normal for the age.  Some moderate surface corrosion that would be resolved with full strip and paint. Interior is as expected for a plane of this age.

 

Both tanks need to be resealed though a patch is what the pre-buy seemed to indicate.  (From my reading if I picked this one up I would plan on the $9k for the tank reseal.)

 

The SB wasn't complied with before the LB1 engine was installed.

 

Logs appear to match the plane and are up to date.  All annuals are documented with no abnormal findings.  No reported damage and no signs of damage or incorrect body repairs noted during the prebuy.

 

All avionics are original but functioning.

 

Would you buy this one at $50k and fix it up or pass and continue the search?

 

As a side not in all my Mooney research on the site I discovered I went to high school with the son of one of the more active Mooney owners on this site, small world...

[blacknchrome]

I think I would pass.  You will end up with a lot of money in that thing  just to get it in decent shape it sounds like. 

The way the 231 market is, you can find something turn key for less than you'll have in that airplane when you get it in fair condition.  There is some benefit to doing the work yourself to your specs and choices, so if you must have it all your way, then this is how to do it...but it doesn't sound like you are. 

I guess if you spend another $50,000 on it, you'll have low time eng, new P&I, an IFR panel (only if it already has an autopilot), and tanks, which make it a nice bird for $100.  But, you'll still have the corrosion issues on the gear and who knows where else.

[Jeff_S]

There will be no one right answer. From what you've said about the pre-buy inspection, there doesn't seem to be anything catastrophically wrong with the plane that can't be fixed up. The engine and prop are low flight time since overhaul, but what about actual calendar time? That's always a consideration, because if it hasn't been flown a decent amount then you have some risk of corrosion and leaky seals.

When I was buying my first plane, the best advice I got was to really consider two things: Corrosion in the wings or airframe, and condition "firewall forward." Any significant corrosion in the main frame or wings was a deal-killer, as would be any significant problems with the engine. It doesn't sound like this plane has either of those.

So if you can buy this for $50K, budget for $9K to reseal tanks, $9K for an exterior refinish and corrosion clean-up, and a miscellaneous $5K for engine repair (leaks and things), you've got a pretty airworthy machine for $73K. Then you decide whether you want to spruce up the interior ($8-10K), put in modern avionics ($25-50K depending on what you want) and do anything else that will make it more enjoyable. You could easily have a $150K machine but it would be pretty nice. Compare that to what you can get on the market today in something similar, and decide whether you want to "buy and fly" or "buy and fix".  That will make your decision for you.

[Mcstealth]

Quote: Jeff_S

There will be no one right answer. From what you've said about the pre-buy inspection, there doesn't seem to be anything catastrophically wrong with the plane that can't be fixed up. The engine and prop are low flight time since overhaul, but what about actual calendar time? That's always a consideration, because if it hasn't been flown a decent amount then you have some risk of corrosion and leaky seals.

When I was buying my first plane, the best advice I got was to really consider two things: Corrosion in the wings or airframe, and condition "firewall forward." Any significant corrosion in the main frame or wings was a deal-killer, as would be any significant problems with the engine. It doesn't sound like this plane has either of those.

So if you can buy this for $50K, budget for $9K to reseal tanks, $9K for an exterior refinish and corrosion clean-up, and a miscellaneous $5K for engine repair (leaks and things), you've got a pretty airworthy machine for $73K. Then you decide whether you want to spruce up the interior ($8-10K), put in modern avionics ($25-50K depending on what you want) and do anything else that will make it more enjoyable. You could easily have a $150K machine but it would be pretty nice. Compare that to what you can get on the market today in something similar, and decide whether you want to "buy and fly" or "buy and fix".  That will make your decision for you.

[Cruiser]

It is always a trade off in terms of fix or buy. I think you can get a better plane if you buy. In other words, it will always cost more to fix. UNLESS you can do the work yourself or help with the work to reduce the price, but then you have the time invested. This does not sound like a "deal" at $50k.

It is a shame beautiful airplanes are allowed to waste away. For whatever reason.

[LFOD]

I will echo everyone else. I made that mistake with my first bird.... Needed a lot of work, avionics, etc.  I lost my ass on that plane. I didnt make that mistake on my second one. I dont think I have put one nickel into upgrading the plane and I am much happier that way. I suspect you will be as well. 

[scottfromiowa]

There are a lot of nice active (flown) and well maintained airframes out there.  I would spend a little more up front and have a "ready" bird vs. bringing a hanger queen back.  This is coming from someone that has been there and done that.  Each "surprise" will make your stomach tighten...Good luck with your search.  A solid pre-buy by a MOONEY qualified/experienced technician is KEY.

[DaV8or]

I'm assuming this plane was checked thouroughly for corrosion? Wing spars and if it sat outside a lot, I'd do the SB 208 inspection on the steel frame too. If it really is reasonably corrosion free where it matters, then you can proceed. The advantages of the fixer upper are, you get the plane the way you want in the end, the satisfaction of bringing an old Mooney back to life and pay as you go expenses. Others here are correct, that just as in old cars, houses, boats, etc, it is always cheaper to buy a completed project than to do one yourself. However, if you don't have the money for a completed project and you like to spend your time working on projects, then this might be a rewarding use of your time and money.

I would consider this; how much needs to be done on day one of ownership to make the plane airworthy, safe and reliable? Do you have the money to pay for these repairs plus money in researve for a number of surprises that are no doubt coming? The last thing you want to happen is have a plane that flys, turn into a ramp rat because of lack of funds. I would plan on pay as you go, but also fly as you go. Do you have a hanger or will you get one? Leaving a plane with poor paint outside only makes it worse. How long can you stand the original avionics and do they work reliably? If you're a VFR pilot, you really just need one reliable radio, a transponder, a hand held GPS and something to spark up your headset. If you plan on IFR, then you'll probably want to replace most of what's there and if you have visions of glass, well, then I would say shop elsewhere because panel work is ridiculously expensive and you should be looking for a plane that already has most of what you want there.

Good luck however you decide! When you get your plane, whatever that ends up being, remember to post pictures here and take her to fly ins with other Mooneys. Other Mooniacs will help you to solve the problems you will have with your plane.

Oh yeah, who did the prebuy?

[scottfromiowa]

I don't disagree at all with what Dave says...it's what I ultimately ended up doing as I couldn't afford more airframe at the time of my purchase, but I look at prices now for birds that ARE flying and really feel that a regularly flown plane is a huge advantage...I went the low airframe/engine time route and was bitten hard.  Buy the most you can afford now in a buyers market (regarding avionics and low engine time...that is being flown NOT a brand new overhaul) and have fun with mods ON YOUR SCHEDULE instead of being side-lined by nits and nats constantly for 2-4 years until it's "where you want it" mechanically.  I'm NOT an A&P or Avionics guy, so read a lot, but ultimately just signing checks and tweddling fingers while X-Ray is/was in the shop.

[Ron McBride]

The other advantage of a fixer upper is: you get the exact plane that you want, the exact color and scheme, the exact interior and radios that you want. There are many planes out there, but are they exactly what you want. They could have good King radios, but you want Narco's. etc.

Ron

 

[KSMooniac]

In the experimental world, there are builders and there are pilots, and it is not uncommon to see builders complete a plane, fly it a little, and then sell it so they can build another...they like building more than flying.  In this case, it has been pointed out that bringing back a neglected Mooney will not really make economic sense, but if you're fine with that, then by all means there is nothing wrong with it.  If you are mechanically-inclined and plan to do a lot of work yourself because you enjoy such a project, then that is the best case.  (You'll need A&P supervision if you're not licensed.)  If you pay others to do all the work, you'll get upside down very, very quickly.

Things that you can do (with some supervision) include interior and window refurbs, removal and stripping/painting/powder coating of the landing gear, replacement of the interior insulation in conjunction with SB-208.  These tasks are more menial than difficult, but if you like working on your bird then you can save a lot of money and pay attention to the details better than a shop.

I wouldn't count on any of the vintage radios working for very long, so figure out what you want in the panel and develop a plan to add them. Any time you get out of the current set could be "bonus" time for you...

If the plane has been sitting, expect the gyros to go quickly, and potentially things under the cowl as well.  Planes don't like to sit.  The radios might have corrosion in the knobs/buttons as well from sitting and that could lead to trouble early on.

Starting with a solid airframe is mandatory, and it sounds like your candidate is that.  It is a tough decision...just understand all of the scenarios up front and then make up your mind.  Good luck!

[fantom]

Given that choice, rather than buy a basket case, what I would do is get some help and build a new RV-10, exactly the way I wanted it.

[steelerp]

I'd pass unless you could get the airplane for a lot less.  SB208 (there is an A & could reveal significant corrosion to the tubes.  That could be very expensive.  There are too many airplanes out there at 70 - 80k that probably have less issues.  Just know you most likely won't get everything you want under 100K.  If you find good paint, low hours since major, good interior...you'll most likely need to dump 15 - 20k in it for radios.  If you find one that has good raidos, you'll probably find damage history that you don't want to deal with.

Don't get in a hurry.  I spent 8 mos looking till I found mine.  And....It needed radios.  21K later ( I had budgeted 12k), I've got a nice 201. 

That's another thing...whatever you "think" something is going to run you, add 30 - 50%.

Rick