WOW!! Very Bad interaction with Don Maxwell

[Utah20Gflyer]

  On 4/1/2025 at 10:32 PM, Jimmyred said:

Nope, no cross words were said.  I addressed what I found on my flight back and asked how we should address them.  I said that I was under the impression that they were a premiere Mooney shop.  Once I brought up that they had cut into my panel he stated, "I am done with you" and hung up.  That's it.

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“I was under the impression you were a premier Mooney shop”  could very easily come across as snarky if said with elevated emotions.  Have you considered that you could have contributed significantly to how the phone call went?  I’m not implying Don (who I’ve never met) reacted correctly, but you can’t control what other people do, only what you do.  Maybe you needed a cooling off period  before having that conversation.  
 

You need to accept personal responsibility for how this all went down.   Did you vet this shop before you put your plane in their care or did you just assume because other people said it was a good shop that it was the right shop for you?  Did you discuss expectations for communication?  Did you ask to talk with the mechanic who was going to be doing the work on your plane beforehand?  Did you discuss what the procedure was for shop caused damage?   Did you discuss how decisions were going to be made on what was going to be fixed and how pricing was going to be communicated.  
 

In other words Don did not just do this to you.  You are a co creator of this scenario.  If I asked to talk to the A&P before they worked on the plane and they said “sorry, you can’t talk to them directly”   Do you think I would ever put my plane in that shop in a million years…. No, there is no way.   
 

If you think this just happened to you, then it will keep happening to you.  I say this with a genuine desire to help you, I hope it came across that way.  
 

 

[PT20J]

I have a hard time with these sorts of reports because there are always two sides to the story and we only hear one. I am NOT saying that anyone is misrepresenting anything, just that it's not the entire picture.

Maintenance is difficult to manage. I frankly don't know how Savvy does it from a distance, but they seem to make it work. In order to get what I want, the way I want it, I need to physically visit the shop. And, I only go to "premier" shops.

First, I put what I want done in writing with as much detail as possible. For instance, I wrote a several page specification when I had the new panel installed. Then, I go over it with the shop. Problem is that often the person you talk to isn't the one doing the work. So, I drop by and check in and answer any questions and then get out of the way several times while the work is being done. They always seem to appreciate it if you don't hang around and get in the way.

There is a serious shortage of mechanics and everyone is having a hard time hiring anyone. A MSC may not have anyone left that had actual factory training. And one thing I've noticed that most every shop is bad at is supervision. So, you are kind of at the mercy of whatever mechanic works on your airplane. That's why I get to know the staff at a few shops and know what they are good at and pick and choose where I take the plane. The days of dropping off the plane, handing over the keys, and getting exactly what you want seem to be long gone. Maybe that's not right. But, in my experience, that's the way it is.

[MikeOH]

  On 4/2/2025 at 12:33 AM, Utah20Gflyer said:

“I was under the impression you were a premier Mooney shop”  could very easily come across as snarky if said with elevated emotions.  Have you considered that you could have contributed significantly to how the phone call went?  I’m not implying Don (who I’ve never met) reacted correctly, but you can’t control what other people do, only what you do.  Maybe you needed a cooling off period  before having that conversation.  
 

You need to accept personal responsibility for how this all went down.   Did you vet this shop before you put your plane in their care or did you just assume because other people said it was a good shop that it was the right shop for you?  Did you discuss expectations for communication?  Did you ask to talk with the mechanic who was going to be doing the work on your plane beforehand?  Did you discuss what the procedure was for shop caused damage?   Did you discuss how decisions were going to be made on what was going to be fixed and how pricing was going to be communicated.  
 

In other words Don did not just do this to you.  You are a co creator of this scenario.  If I asked to talk to the A&P before they worked on the plane and they said “sorry, you can’t talk to them directly”   Do you think I would ever put my plane in that shop in a million years…. No, there is no way.   
 

If you think this just happened to you, then it will keep happening to you.  I say this with a genuine desire to help you, I hope it came across that way.  
 

 

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SIGH...nothin' like blaming the customer, good grief!  Say all of that is TRUE, it still does NOT excuse cutting up the guy's panel without at least a phone call!  Don's shop absolutely did this to him, NOT the other way around.  He is NOT the co-creator of the original issue.  Argue all you want how the customer mishandled it (never blame the shop for how THEY mishandled it, right?), but the ORIGINAL problem is not on the owner.

I've more respect for the claim that we are just lucky to have anyone willing to work on our planes at all.  Therefore, you should be happy to over pay and receive crappy service!  Don't dream about complaining or you'll ruin it for everyone! At least that's an honest opinion on why acceptance is the best policy (i.e., bend over and take it).

I do agree with @PT20J that we only have one side of the story, but it's hard to see a scenario (other than an outright lie) where grinding on someone's panel to 'fix' anything would be okay without a phone call to discuss FIRST.

[PT20J]

  On 4/1/2025 at 12:26 PM, Jimmyred said:

I would not call Don Maxwell Aviation a premiere shop.  When I repeatedly ask about my plane all I got was Christa saying, "If I had a specific question she would relay it".  How can you have a question when you don't even know what they are doing to your plane?  And my fears were realized when I got my plane back and they GRINDED OUT part of my brand new, $100k, panel!  No call, no e-mail, they just grinded it out!  Now it says "ottle"!  Really, this is the work of a great shop?  

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That looks like a vernier throttle which is not the original design. I looks like they had to grind the panel to make room for the knob when the throttle is fully open. Did you ask for this throttle? 

[Jimmyred]

  On 4/2/2025 at 1:00 AM, PT20J said:

I have a hard time with these sorts of reports because there are always two sides to the story and we only hear one. I am NOT saying that anyone is misrepresenting anything, just that it's not the entire picture.

Maintenance is difficult to manage. I frankly don't know how Savvy does it from a distance, but they seem to make it work. In order to get what I want, the way I want it, I need to physically visit the shop. And, I only go to "premier" shops.

First, I put what I want done in writing with as much detail as possible. For instance, I wrote a several page specification when I had the new panel installed. Then, I go over it with the shop. Problem is that often the person you talk to isn't the one doing the work. So, I drop by and check in and answer any questions and then get out of the way several times while the work is being done. They always seem to appreciate it if you don't hang around and get in the way.

There is a serious shortage of mechanics and everyone is having a hard time hiring anyone. A MSC may not have anyone left that had actual factory training. And one thing I've noticed that most every shop is bad at is supervision. So, you are kind of at the mercy of whatever mechanic works on your airplane. That's why I get to know the staff at a few shops and know what they are good at and pick and choose where I take the plane. The days of dropping off the plane, handing over the keys, and getting exactly what you want seem to be long gone. Maybe that's not right. But, in my experience, that's the way it is.

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Believe me I called them many times and tried to talk to the mechanic.  And I did actually drive down there to try to see what was going on.   I would talk to Christa, on the phone, and I did say that I didn't feel comfortable not knowing what was going on.  Yet she said that unless I had a "specific" question then all she could do was read from the list.  And, like you say, it is a fine line of not bugging them and trying to make sure the work is being done properly.  And I can say that no one there took any time to help me with my concerns.  

[MikeOH]

  On 4/2/2025 at 1:31 AM, PT20J said:

That looks like a vernier throttle which is not the original design. I looks like they had to grind the panel to make room for the knob when the throttle is fully open. Did you ask for this throttle? 

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Let's say he did, maybe even supplied the part.  Shop should still have called BEFORE hacking up his panel. There is just no excuse for that omission.

[Jimmyred]

  On 4/2/2025 at 1:31 AM, PT20J said:

That looks like a vernier throttle which is not the original design. I looks like they had to grind the panel to make room for the knob when the throttle is fully open. Did you ask for this throttle? 

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No.  I discussed that all three controls were sticky and needed to be repaired or replaced.  And this is the problem that until the mechanic looks at it then how can you know what the best options are?  Could I have basically wrote up a contract of all the things, that may have been needed to be replaced, repaired, should new parts be used, old parts be used, what should happen if they damage something, etc. But really is that really possible, to anticipate every possible scenario before a mechanic even looks at it? 

No, I don't think so.  What is reasonable is that when the customer ask to talk to the mechanic every two days or so, so that both side understands what they found and agreeing on a course of action, that that is reasonable.  And that didn't happen even though I requested it multiple times.  

 

[EricJ]

There may be a good reason for cutting that arch in the panel, especially if you asked for maintenance to be done on that control.   I was speculating that maybe there was interference with the lock, and if you had complained that it was "sticky", that might have been the cure.   Otherwise, if the cable was put in while the upper panel was out, it may have been the only way to get to it to address the problem without removing the upper panel.    I've no idea what communications were or were not done, I'm just speculating that there may have been a very good reason for making the modification, especially if you asked for it to be looked at.

 

[PT20J]

  On 4/2/2025 at 2:40 AM, MikeOH said:

Let's say he did, maybe even supplied the part.  Shop should still have called BEFORE hacking up his panel. There is just no excuse for that omission.

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Maybe. I think that's subject to interpretation. If I supply a certain part to be installed, a reasonable assumption might be that I'm aware that it doesn't fit without modification. If I were the mechanic, I would inform the customer that it doesn't fit before installing it, but I can see how someone else would assume that I knew it didn't fit since I supplied the cable.

I'm still not clear if the shop replaced the cable or if that is the one that was already installed when the airplane was brought to the shop. That's not an OEM cable. If that is the cable that was installed when the airplane was brought in, then perhaps @EricJ's speculation is correct.

Perhaps the lesson here is that when bringing an airplane into the shop with a squawk list, it is good to discuss how the squawks will be fixed before work begins and, if there are options or uncertainties, set the ground rules for communication and decision making.

[MikeOH]

  On 4/2/2025 at 3:04 AM, PT20J said:

Maybe. I think that's subject to interpretation. If I supply a certain part to be installed, a reasonable assumption might be that I'm aware that it doesn't fit without modification. If I were the mechanic, I would inform the customer that it doesn't fit before installing it, but I can see how someone else would assume that I knew it didn't fit since I supplied the cable.

I'm still not clear if the shop replaced the cable or if that is the one that was already installed when the airplane was brought to the shop. That's not an OEM cable. If that is the cable that was installed when the airplane was brought in, then perhaps @EricJ's speculation is correct.

Perhaps the lesson here is that when bringing an airplane into the shop with a squawk list, it is good to discuss how the squawks will be fixed before work begins and, if there are options or uncertainties, set the ground rules for communication and decision making.

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In this case we are going to have to disagree; I don't think this is subject to ANY interpretation.  If the grinding is hidden, then I can see your point.  But wanton grinding that destroys the label for an engine control is just NOT something that the shop/mechanic gets to 'assume' is okay!

[DCarlton]

I had to leave my airplane out of state last year for unexpected repairs.  It took weeks to receive essential parts.  I asked for additional elective work to be accomplish during the down time.  The mechanic agreed to text me with any questions or findings and to update me periodically.  I left him alone.  He texted me frequently.  I was extremely comfortable and satisfied with the process.  Texting is easy and you don’t have to stop work to answer a phone.  

[Jimmyred]

  On 4/2/2025 at 3:04 AM, PT20J said:

Maybe. I think that's subject to interpretation. If I supply a certain part to be installed, a reasonable assumption might be that I'm aware that it doesn't fit without modification. If I were the mechanic, I would inform the customer that it doesn't fit before installing it, but I can see how someone else would assume that I knew it didn't fit since I supplied the cable.

I'm still not clear if the shop replaced the cable or if that is the one that was already installed when the airplane was brought to the shop. That's not an OEM cable. If that is the cable that was installed when the airplane was brought in, then perhaps @EricJ's speculation is correct.

Perhaps the lesson here is that when bringing an airplane into the shop with a squawk list, it is good to discuss how the squawks will be fixed before work begins and, if there are options or uncertainties, set the ground rules for communication and decision making.

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No, that throttle was not on the airplane when I brought it in NOR did I provide it.   I wouldn't expect that they would grind into my panel without my consent anymore than taking a Sawzall to the side of the fuselage to work on the trim screw! I said to Don that they were sticky and may need to be replaced or repaired.  Not do major surgery and replace them at all cost!  No this isn't even close.  What they did was pure laziness and incompetence.  

[N201MKTurbo]

So we cannot change the past. My idea to make it better would be to mill out a nice looking relief above all three knobs and remark the labeling. There is a lady on Etsy that will make custom small silk screens, pre-exposed and ready to print for little money. She will probably sell you the paint and squeegee too.

[Jimmyred]

  On 4/2/2025 at 1:56 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

So we cannot change the past. My idea to make it better would be to mill out a nice looking relief above all three knobs and remark the labeling. There is a lady on Etsy that will make custom small silk screens, pre-exposed and ready to print for little money. She will probably sell you the paint and squeegee too.

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Thank you for the suggestion!

[PT20J]

  On 4/2/2025 at 3:53 AM, Jimmyred said:

No, that throttle was not on the airplane when I brought it in NOR did I provide it.   I wouldn't expect that they would grind into my panel without my consent anymore than taking a Sawzall to the side of the fuselage to work on the trim screw! I said to Don that they were sticky and may need to be replaced or repaired.  Not do major surgery and replace them at all cost!  No this isn't even close.  What they did was pure laziness and incompetence.  

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In that case then I agree with you.

[Slick Nick]

  On 4/2/2025 at 2:51 AM, EricJ said:

There may be a good reason for cutting that arch in the panel, especially if you asked for maintenance to be done on that control.   I was speculating that maybe there was interference with the lock, and if you had complained that it was "sticky", that might have been the cure.   Otherwise, if the cable was put in while the upper panel was out, it may have been the only way to get to it to address the problem without removing the upper panel.    I've no idea what communications were or were not done, I'm just speculating that there may have been a very good reason for making the modification, especially if you asked for it to be looked at.

 

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Disagree with this. If the throttle was originally installed before the panel was mounted, then a new one can be installed the same way. It may cost an extra 6 hours to remove / remount the panel, but that is exactly why you call the customer and ask what they would rather do. "This doesn't fit, we can either pull the panel to install it, which will cost you 6 hours, or we can do it in 1 hour by cutting a notch in the panel. Which would you prefer?"

I would be absolutely furious if I saw my panel hacked up like that, and my panel isn't anywhere near as nice I assure you. The fact that they couldn't even be bothered to pick up the phone is troublesome.

I have no skin in the game, I've never used this shop nor will I, being in another country. But lots of these anecdotes read as though the shop has grown "too big for it's britches" and the quality of work seems to be suffering.

[Jimmyred]

  On 4/2/2025 at 3:08 PM, Slick Nick said:

Disagree with this. If the throttle was originally installed before the panel was mounted, then a new one can be installed the same way. It may cost an extra 6 hours to remove / remount the panel, but that is exactly why you call the customer and ask what they would rather do. "This doesn't fit, we can either pull the panel to install it, which will cost you 6 hours, or we can do it in 1 hour by cutting a notch in the panel. Which would you prefer?"

I would be absolutely furious if I saw my panel hacked up like that, and my panel isn't anywhere near as nice I assure you. The fact that they couldn't even be bothered to pick up the phone is troublesome.

I have no skin in the game, I've never used this shop nor will I, being in another country. But lots of these anecdotes read as though the shop has grown "too big for it's britches" and the quality of work seems to be suffering.

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Or the original could have been repaired.  There are shops that do that.  This is what I told Don when I took it in.  However, I guess what really hurt was that he just abandoned me.  He took my money and then said your on your own.  

[DCarlton]

  On 4/2/2025 at 1:56 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

So we cannot change the past. My idea to make it better would be to mill out a nice looking relief above all three knobs and remark the labeling. There is a lady on Etsy that will make custom small silk screens, pre-exposed and ready to print for little money. She will probably sell you the paint and squeegee too.

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Exactly.  It would actually be a very nice design detail if they were all treated the same way and the panel was relabeled.  

[Slick Nick]

  On 4/2/2025 at 4:03 PM, Jimmyred said:

Or the original could have been repaired.  There are shops that do that.  This is what I told Don when I took it in.  However, I guess what really hurt was that he just abandoned me.  He took my money and then said your on your own.  

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The fact that they couldn’t even be bothered to pick up the phone and call you makes me wonder what else they may have taken liberties with. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

I'll say one comment on picking up the phone.  Don is on the phone all day.  I visit the Maxwells about 2x per year.  If you've visited his shop, it can be very difficult to have a conversation with him because the phone is always ringing.  Many times he's giving advice to pilots that are AOG or mechanics that don't have the level of expertise.  I know some of these people will never pay him a dime, but he has always looked out for Mooney people, in general.

I can have the same issue in my business.  Some days I've been on the phone for *hours* and I just watch missed call after missed call while I'm talking insurance with prospects, existing customers, or underwriters.

Please have some understanding towards that and remember that he's usually not the one turning the wrenches...

One of the downsides of giving people the time of day is you run out of time in the day and your other work still has to be taken care of...

[Jimmyred]

  On 4/3/2025 at 2:30 AM, Slick Nick said:

The fact that they couldn’t even be bothered to pick up the phone and call you makes me wonder what else they may have taken liberties with. 

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Yes, I am very disappointed.  I trusted my plane to them and they let me down.  

[1980Mooney]

  On 4/3/2025 at 2:12 PM, Parker_Woodruff said:

I'll say one comment on picking up the phone.  Don is on the phone all day. ...the phone is always ringing.  .. he's giving advice to pilots that are AOG or mechanics that don't have the level of expertise.  I know some of these people will never pay him a dime, but he has always looked out for Mooney people, in general.

One of the downsides of giving people the time of day is you run out of time in the day and your other work still has to be taken care of...

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Right.. pilot/owners like me.  I have only spoken to him directly once.  When I was a new Mooney owner many years ago, I was perplexed not being able to figure out why my clock, panel and interior lights were out on my J.  I looked at all the breakers, looked in the POH, looked in the Service Manual.  There was no AI, Chat GPY-4  or "COPILOT" to search the internet for me. We were going to leave on a trip and I had no time to take it to an A&P.  In frustration I called Maxwell Aviation.  Don was nice enough to immediately get on the phone and tell me about the glass AGC fuse holder "hidden" in the tail near the battery.  A quick trip to the auto parts store to get some fuses and our trip was saved.  Thanks again to Maxwell.

[N177MC]

That's a "vernier" throttle cable from McFarlane.  I just installed one in an Eagle.  I was bit taken back by the size of the knurled friction adjustment collar, much bigger than the one it replaced.  That said, on the factory panel there was plenty of clearance and no interference with the panel.

[Jimmyred]

  On 4/3/2025 at 4:55 PM, N177MC said:

That's a "vernier" throttle cable from McFarlane.  I just installed one in an Eagle.  I was bit taken back by the size of the knurled friction adjustment collar, much bigger than the one it replaced.  That said, on the factory panel there was plenty of clearance and no interference with the panel.

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This is why I discussed with Don, before any work was started, that the controls could be repaired or replaced.  But since they refused to keep me in the loop as to what they were doing, even though I requested it many times,  I was not given the option on having the original throttle repaired or taking a grinder to my brand new panel.  

[Sabremech]

  On 4/3/2025 at 5:50 PM, Jimmyred said:

This is why I discussed with Don, before any work was started, that the controls could be repaired or replaced.  But since they refused to keep me in the loop as to what they were doing, even though I requested it many times,  I was not given the option on having the original throttle repaired or taking a grinder to my brand new panel.  

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I’m not trying to be rude or insulting, but what do you want? I think you made your point but by continuing to say the same thing, you’re losing your audience. What’s your end game here on Mooneyspace?