Engine hoses

[PTK]

Took the airplane into well known MSC recently to look at something. Took the opportunity to have oil changed while there and also inquired about changing engine hoses.

I was quoted 1700$ and change for teflon hoses with fire sleeve. This is just for the hoses! I inquired as to manufacturer and was told it was PHT.

Does this sound right? It certainly doesn't pass my smell test.

[ArtVandelay]

Yep that sounds correct, I just had all mine replaced

[MARZ]

Hoses don't cost much. It the ten hours of labor to snake em out and back in properly

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[Jerry 5TJ]

I replaced all the oil hoses in the "C" this summer.  It is not too bad to get them out, I figure that took a few hours.   The hose fittings can be reused, you buy new hose material for $5 to $10 per foot depending on size, and you buy the fire sleeve, and buy or borrow the mandrel tools, one per hose size.  Then you want some fittings to adapt to pressure test the hoses when you're done. Total material cost was about $100 for four hoses.  You will probably have to build some jigs to grapple with the tools during installation.   Then put the hoses back in the plane and re-install the Adel clamps.   Probably took me 15 hours spread over about a week.   So, yes, $1700 sounds about right, inexpensive even.

 

If I had it to do again -- I would remove the hoses, send them out to someone to fabricate new exact replacements, and then reinstall them myself.  Making the hoses was fun only the first time. 

[M20F-1968]

I have some teflon oil hose with integrated fire sleeve which I did not use on my rebuild project.  They can be gotten from me for short money.  I can get you sizes.  They are new.  You can call me at (617) 877-0025 or e-mail me at johnabreda@yahoo.com

 

John Breda

[PTK]

As I said, I was quoted 1700$ just for the hoses alone. Not including labor.

I called PHT and was quoted approx. 900$ for 9 hoses!

[triple8s]

I had mine made by Gann they do good work and reasonable.

[Guest]

Seems like quite a mark up. What would be more reasonable, 20, 25, 30, 40%?

Clarence

[N201MKTurbo]

That seems pretty expensive. I seem to recall the hoses were $60 to $200 each.

Two oil cooler hoses @ $200

Three fuel hoses @ $80

Sounds like about $640

I'd shop around....

[MARZ]

Didn't read close enough. I had both oil cooler hoses replaced and fire sleeved. Total cost was around 1100.

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[Steve Dawson]

There's a manufacturer on Beechtalk that does some very nice work and he's interested in doing Mooneys. And some of his hoses come in different colours.

 

Gee-Bee Aeroproducts N77GB@MSN.COM || 800-556-3160 PST

[PTK]

The gentleman I spoke with at PHT quoted me 9 hoses. He also indicated that in my M20J application I cannot use Teflon for oil cooler hose. It would kink due to the tight radius. No mention of this from the MSC!

Has anyone run into this?

Are all usually changed or certain ones?

The real kicker is I never could get a straight answer how many hoses the 1700$ is for when they called me with price a few days later!

[ArtVandelay]

The gentleman I spoke with at PHT quoted me 9 hoses. He also indicated that in my M20J application I cannot use Teflon for oil cooler hose. It would kink due to the tight radius. No mention of this from the MSC!

Has anyone run into this?

Are all usually changed or certain ones?

My MSC said all my fluid flex hoses were dated from 1994 and unserviceable, they replaced them with a part number listed as "M20J hosekit". They said the same about the brake hoses. P&L for all include brake hoses was $2000, that includes 7 hrs of labor.

[tony]

^{Hoses are really not that hard to make.  You just need: new hoses (aircraft spruce), a wiz wheel to cut it to length,  a mandrel, a vice, and a wrench.  Its might also be a good idea to have a spare connector incase you mess one up.  Oh yea, and an A&P to sign off the work......}

[PTK]

Seems like quite a mark up. What would be more reasonable, 20, 25, 30, 40%?

Clarence

Well, Clarence, let's do the math and see.

 

PHT quoted me approx. 950$ for 9 Teflon hoses with orange fire sleeve.  Integral fire sleeve about 100$ more. Shipping maybe 20$. Looking around 1100$ round numbers shipped to my door.

 

Where does the MSC justify the extra 700$ ? I can pickup the phone to place the order the same way they can.

If they do it it costs 65% markup!

 

That's a hell of a markup for a three minute telephone call!

[Vance Harral]

Recommend you call Aviall too, and price compare vs. PHT.  Either is fine, I'm sure.  For reference, we bought 4 PTFE oil hoses with integrated fire sleeve from Aviall a couple of months ago (two for the oil cooler, two that feed the oil pressure gauge).  Total cost for hoses alone, not including labor, was about $750, most of that for the larger diameter oil cooler hoses.  I'm aware you can make them yourself for much cheaper, but we didn't want to DIY it, and we were a little uncomfortable with the idea of re-using fittings.

[PTK]

I do not have the expertise to make engine hoses and I don't mind paying the money to the pros.

 

But a phone call I think I can handle!

[Guest]

Well, Clarence, let's do the math and see.

 

PHT quoted me approx. 950$ for 9 Teflon hoses with orange fire sleeve.  Integral fire sleeve about 100$ more. Shipping maybe 20$. Looking around 1100$ round numbers shipped to my door.

 

Where does the MSC justify the extra 700$ ? I can pickup the phone to place the order the same way they can.

If they do it it costs 65% markup!

 

That's a hell of a markup for a three minute telephone call!

That's why I was asking what a reasonable mark up is? I would be asking them for clarification on the hose pricing.

I know that any time I import goods from the US I can count on at least $100.00 for Fed Ex or UPS, 13% exchange and 13% taxation.

One of the problems with this industry is the Home Depot effect. Everyone can buy at 2X4 at Home Depot for the same price as your carpenter, how is the carpenter supposed to make a modest living?

The same holds true for Aircraft Spruce, one price for everyone, you can buy an oil filter from them for the same price as your A&P or shop. If the shop is supposed to stock them for the time you show up wanting one they have to have a reasonable mark up.

We can all buy steak and potatoes cheaper at the grocery but have no qualms paying a restaurant for their services and mark up.

Clarence

[PTK]

Clarence, please consider the following:

In you carpenter example, I expect to pay for the carpenter's trouble to buy and transport the lumber to my building site. Or if I choose to buy the material and transport it I expect to only pay him for his labor.

Also in your restaurant example, consider that they have to buy the steak and potatoes, cook them and serve them to us. They have expenses over and above the material costs. At the grocery store we buy them and we have to do the cooking. So a steak in a restaurant is not the same steak as one from the butcher.

In this case the MSC does absolutely nothing to obtain the material except one phone call! They don't stock them but order them as you or I could.

The "product" the shop is selling to me is their expertise in installing the hoses for example. Not the hoses themselves. That is not their product. They don't manufacture it. But they take a huge mark-up nevertheless. The consumer gets penalized by paying twice for the material.

Do these considerations change anything?

When asked for a clarification on pricing they refused to clarify. Their answer was "we can't get them for that price!" I had just gotten off the phone with PHT.

[KSMooniac]

I agree with Peter on this one.  If I walk into my local service center and want to purchase oil, filter, light bulbs, whatever "off the shelf" for my convenience, I fully expect that I'll have to pay more than I would from Aircraft Spruce a few days from now.  If they're ordering a non-stock item, they shouldn't mark it up much at all, if any, beyond the labor cost to process the order and maybe receive a box.  

 

I'll add one caveat... if we're talking about a very expensive item such as a new GPS, engine, or prop, etc. and the shop has to "float" the cost of the item, then they might be entitled to some juice for that service unless the customer paid directly for such an item.  

[Guest]

I'm not defending them, but asking what is a reasonable markup that you or any consumer would feel it was fair for both parties?

Clarence

Forgot to add, should a shop be able to mark up their shop labour rate above and beyond their cost of wages and benefits?

[Alan Fox]

Just stumbled on this one ,  The shop should make a minimum of 25% on their inventory ,  Want to buy your own parts ?  Put them on yourself...… Problem solved...

[jetdriven]

10 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Just stumbled on this one ,  The shop should make a minimum of 25% on their inventory ,  Want to buy your own parts ?  Put them on yourself...… Problem solved...

I think in the case of ordering a hose kit that’s not inventory though, is it? 

[hypertech]

It could be right.  It depends on how many hoses you have and what ends are on them.  My cost ended up being around there although the initial estimate was lower.  I had a couple extra hoses for the TKS system and one of them had an odd connector on the end.

 

If you do it, I recommend sending the old hoses into PHT for duplication.  That way you make sure you get the right thing back. 

[StevenL757]

On 10/18/2014 at 11:43 AM, PTK said:

Took the airplane into well known MSC recently to look at something. Took the opportunity to have oil changed while there and also inquired about changing engine hoses.

I was quoted 1700$ and change for teflon hoses with fire sleeve. This is just for the hoses! I inquired as to manufacturer and was told it was PHT.

Does this sound right? It certainly doesn't pass my smell test.

Yes, unfortunately it is true...that's a fair cost for that caliber of hose.  In addition to rubber hose (which is much cheaper), it's a perfect time to do it, as all of them get brittle over time.

Steve