B.F.R. in a Mooney or Other ?

[OR75]

I am curious as to whether it is best to do the B.F.R. in my Mooney, or simply use a flight school's trainer type plane.

 Wondering what Mooney owners choose to do and why.

 

[carusoam]

For BFR, I typically use my own plane.  If the flight instructor is going to point out a deficiency, it will be real and something I can learn from.

For repeated slow flight, power-on and power-off stalls and recovery, I would consider using the flight school equipment.  BFRs don't typically do this repeatedly do they?

Best regards,

-a-

Best regards,

 

[Ned Gravel]

I agree with Carusoam. 

BFR is not just a box to tick, at least for me.  It is an opportunity to have an experienced second set of eyes examine what I do and how I do it.  Every one has provided me with a new tidbit of knowledge that sharpens one skill or another.  Our responses to challenging situations give this critical examiner an idea of how we can do it better next time, or why an unforseen consideration should form part of our thinking processes.

Sometimes, they (the instructors) learn from us. The last one included a discussion of the "in flight mag check" because the instructor had never experienced one before. 

[Immelman]

Use your own airplane unless there is a good reason to rent another. A good reason might be that you fly tailwheels occasionally (I do) and want to knock the rust off, or if you want to try something new like a course on spins, basic aerobatics, or the like, that can't be done in your Mooney.

Otherwise, practice in basic proficiency and the various flight maneuvers -- to include MCA and stalls -- really should be done in your own airplane. I am assuming that owners typically fly their own airplane the majority of the time there.

[OR75]

Agreed with the comments above.

But also keeping in mind that: Not a lot of CFIs have Mooney experience and not certain about wanting to really power-on stall a Mooney.

[Immelman]

OR, I hear you. I just obtained my CFI ticket in my Mooney. But with that said, while a stall is a stall... knowing how your airplane behaves and the signs it gives you approaching a stall really should be something you are well practiced in and comfortable in. This is done by approaching stalls -- right up into the aerodynamic buffet -- in various configurations.

Here is a tip for safety on the power on stalls, one that I arrived at in preparation for my CFI checkride: Use 65% power (doesn't have to be precisely 65, just somewhere near there). The reason here is safety -- in my opinion a weak spot on our airplanes is rudder authority. As you approach the stall you must, of course, be coordinated. Note how much rudder travel remains in that situation -- not much! What does this say about a real world inadvertent power on stall (with, say, full power?) if the left wing were to start to drop a slight power reduction might be in order to right the airplane.

With all this said, we all know that one should never unintentionally stall an airplane. Just food for thought.

[davidfreedman]

I recently completed my BFR with a CFII/IA that had several hundred hours of Mooney-time.  I picked up a few new tips, some Mooney-specific or at least Mooney-adapted...well worth the BFR.  As mentioned early in the thread, I fly my plane and that's the one I want to be proficient in.

I recommed you take the extra time and potentially incrimental expense to do your BFR with a Mooney instructor.  I'm not sure about Oregon...but you've got some great Mooney instructors 3 hours away in the Bay Area...head over there to do your BRF...and a good excuse to do some flying.

[DaV8or]

I just did this. I wanted to combine my BFR with my Mooney checkout. Good comments above. Only negatives for me is the fact that a BFR flight can be a little tough on the engine because your doing alot of very different throttle settings in a short period of time. Then there is the stalls. My instructor really wanted a full stall and not just to the buffet. We did power on and power off. I did my damndest to keep the ball centered and both times she dropped a wing and started a spin. Recovery was easy and we didn't loose all that much altitude, but it is an exciting stall IMO. I felt OK because my instructor has a fair amount of Mooney time and lots of aerobatic time. I personally would see if you can ask your instructor if stalls to buffet would suffice.

[Ned Gravel]

I remember a BFR about four years ago where the instructor (knowing I was doing my IFR training) wanted me to stall it while in a climbing turn.  Just the idea scared the **** out of me.

The whole evolution turned out to be a near non-event.  Port wing started to drop but the recovery prevented any further development of a spin. Lost only about 300'.  Gained a lot of confidence trying that.

[roundout]

Quote: edgargravel

I remember a BFR about four years ago where the instructor (knowing I was doing my IFR training) wanted me to stall it while in a climbing turn.  Just the idea scared the **** out of me.

The whole evolution turned out to be a near non-event.  Port wing started to drop but the recovery prevented any further development of a spin. Lost only about 300'.  Gained a lot of confidence trying that.

[M016576]

I did my first mooney checkout in Eugene, there is a GREAT flight instructor there that knows mooney's in and out (I highly recommend him, if you PM me, I'll give you his name).  Tons of hours in all types and makes of aircraft:  he's also huge in the glider community... If you think flying is challenging, imagine having to plan a power off landing EVERY flight!

Use your own airplane for the BFR... OR... use a school's airplane, then get a CFI with mooney experience to go flying with you later to tighten yourself up in your own aircraft.  Due to FAA regs, I'm not required to do a BFR... BUT... I still hire a CFI to go flying with me for an hour or two every year.  It's good practice to have a second set of eyes evaluating your procedures/performance... the more you do this, the less complaicent you become, and overall, it makes you a better pilot.  Having an instructor present takes away many of the rationalization issues that may come up if you practice alone... "well, that wasn't a perfect landing, but it was probably the (insert excuse here)" or "yeah, I was a little short on that PEL, but if it were a REAL emergency I would have (insert excuse here)."  A good instructor will recognize the moment that things are amiss and give you realtime feedback as to how to correct it!

Long story short: it doesn't hurt to know your own aircraft, and one or two power on stalls won't cause your motor to immediately explode (although I wouldn't recommend doing 40 of them in a row every flight!).

           -Job

[M016576]

on this topic-  Anyone else get a healthy wing drop when their mooney stalls?  I do... first time I did it, it snuck up on me a bit.  Another plug to do the BFR and the stalls (to completion) in your own aircraft....

[FlyingAggie]

Dave, 

I am curious how many stalls you actually performed as part of your transition training.  I used a very experienced Mooney instructor but we only did 4 or 5 stalls.  The power on stalls were only done at 65% power.  For some reason, I expected to do more. 

My instructor was pretty diligent about taking care of the turbo charged engine.  We also didn't do touch and goes.  Each landing was to a full stop and except for on day when we were doing crosswind landings training, we didn't just stay in the pattern.  Instead we airport hopped from landing at one local airport to landing at another.

I think I would want to take my BFR in my Mooney.

Quote: DaV8or,

I just did this. I wanted to combine my BFR with my Mooney checkout. Good comments above. Only negatives for me is the fact that a BFR flight can be a little tough on the engine because your doing alot of very different throttle settings in a short period of time. Then there is the stalls. My instructor really wanted a full stall and not just to the buffet. We did power on and power off. I did my damndest to keep the ball centered and both times she dropped a wing and started a spin. Recovery was easy and we didn't loose all that much altitude, but it is an exciting stall IMO. I felt OK because my instructor has a fair amount of Mooney time and lots of aerobatic time. I personally would see if you can ask your instructor if stalls to buffet would suffice.

[RJBrown]

My insurance requires a IPC every year. This year I will combine it with my BFR. Both in My plane. Being proficient in YOUR plane is more important than just being legal.

[dlthig]

As a CFII, I'd prefer to give the BFR in your airplane. Unless you are wanting to learn something new, I'd expect you to want to be the master of your bird. I gave a buddy a BFR last month in his Comanche. We did some things that he hadn't done since his Commercial. The point is to move some chips from you luck bucket to your experience bucket.

[OR75]

Thanks for all the input. A good discussion.

I need to find a CFI who knows Mooneys in the bay area.

If not, might as well get the endorsement to use the flight school's trainers.

 

 

 

[FlyingAggie]

I don't think that you could do better than flying with Don Kaye, who is based at KSJC and specializes in Mooney Instruction.

http://www.donkaye.com

Quote: OR75

Thanks for all the input. A good discussion.

I need to find a CFI who knows Mooneys in the bay area.

If not, might as well get the endorsement to use the flight school's trainers.

 

 

 

[DaV8or]

Quote: FlyingAggie

[roundout]

Quote: DaV8or

I seriously don't see the point in practicing stalls as long as you have the recovery procedure down. I can almost guarantee that if you ever get into and actual accidental stall, the ball will not be centered and your hand won't be on the throttle ready to react.

[carusoam]

Reason #XX to use your mooney for practice....

Get a good feel for what full power is like after a go-around.

The transition from full flaps / low power, to flaps up / full power, probably comes with a healthy dose of holding the nose down and re-trim.  You may not get the same practice with a Cessna.

This is neither of the classic power on or power off stalls.  It is a situation I have encountered trying to get a fully loaded plane into a relatively short field.  It certainly can be a handful.

See the similar thread on touch and go landings. 

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=1100

Keep in mind, this can be practiced at altitude.  It does not need to be an actual go around at low levels...

Best regards,

-a-

[Earl]

I would do it in your plane.  Like other responses I use the BFR to sharpen skills, learn something and practice in my plane doing things I dont do very often (ie, slow flight, emergency procedures, etc.).  I also use a CFII that I do regular instrument recurrency training for my BFR.  He knows the plane and he knows me and he works me over pretty good.  Absent that I would find one with a lot of Mooney experience because it is a great opportunity to learn.

[Amelia]

Why wouldn't you do your BFR in the airplane you fly most, the one your family rides in, the one you're most likely to encounter a pucker-making experience in?  (she looks puzzled here. seeking enlightenment)

And another thing- at low speeds, especially close to the ground, my hand is ALWAYS on the throttle, except for momentary departures to adjust flaps, put mixture and prop rich, lower gear, etc. Not the plan??

[M016576]

Quote: Amelia

Why wouldn't you do your BFR in the airplane you fly most, the one your family rides in, the one you're most likely to encounter a pucker-making experience in?  (she looks puzzled here. seeking enlightenment)

And another thing- at low speeds, especially close to the ground, my hand is ALWAYS on the throttle, except for momentary departures to adjust flaps, put mixture and prop rich, lower gear, etc. Not the plan??

[OR75]

A main reason I chose to own a Mooney rather than a Piper (I wanted a low wing)  was that I wanted a relatively low-time and non-beaten up aircraft that wouild be fairly well equipped.  Which almost for sure meant a plane that was not used as a trainer.

 

 

[msw]

 I agree... I think the reason why some members would be hesitant is that they feel that the power on stalls and touch and goes lead to premature engine wear.  Each owner/pilot needs to make their own decision about how to treat their airplane.  Personally, I don't think that a few power on stalls every year and some touch and goes does any damage, the motor is designed to take on much worse than that........