Practical IFR advice

[Marauder]

FYI, Weather Flying is now up to the 5th edition. It's most recent edition was released last year. Caption Buck passed away a few years back, but his son, Delta Airlines (?) Capt Robert O Buck, has included how to use the internet and other modern sources of weather info. The book remains one of the best sources of up-to-date weather training our there.   

 

Now if I can get a good understanding of skew-Ts, I would be golden

[WardHolbrook]

Now if I can get a good understanding of skew-Ts, I would be golden

http://avwxworkshops.com/index_guest.php

[WardHolbrook]

I cannot imagine ATC would deny a diversion for wx.

 

But... 

 

FAR 91.3, (a):

"The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

You wouldn't think so, but the Mexicans aren't as agreeable to stuff like that. (As the Turbo Commander pilot discovered) Unlike Canada, they don't like it when you overfly the Mexican border and enter their airspace, for whatever reason. That's one example of having to take matters into your own hands.

[Glenn]

I think that your question was more about other pilots' opinions of flying into a lone 18,000' buildup.  A lesson that I seem to have needed to relearn about every 15 years is, DON'T!  

 

The reason that buildup is taller than the rest is because there is a chimney inside of it.  No bricks and masonary, but strong and sometimes abrupt updrafts. I agree with not canceling IFR, but don't let them talk you into a risky or very uncomfortable situation.  There are always alternatives.

[1964-M20E]

I would not fly into a buildup like that if at all avoidable.

I have penetrated some lesser events and got shaken up pretty good even if it was only for a minute or two.  

Finally, I have never been denied a deviation by ATC for weather and usually they have been quite helpful in giving me vectors to avoid weather or calling my attention to it when necessary.

[donkaye]

From experience, I don't like going through ANY convective cloud.  Even in large airliners you get bumped around.  In our small tin cans it's much worse, and passengers can become very uncomfortable.  If you think "fly for passenger comfort" even if you are the only passenger, you'll have a much better day.  

 

Regarding weather equipment on board, there is absolutely no reason in this day and age that at least XM or FIS-B weather shouldn't be onboard.  In fact I would consider it irresponsible to not have access to it.  I personally want a stormscope for real time weather, but there have been times where it really didn't help.  In that vein my further experience is that if whether "looks" bad ahead it IS bad and demands immediate action, be it possible deviation, or the venerable 180°, or a press of the Nearest button and an immediate landing.  I've had some of my best experiences at places I've unexpectedly stopped due to weather.

 

If IFR, regarding deviations, I've used "Unable due to weather" several times and ATC has always been cooperative--especially if you use the words "due to icing conditions".  Since I really don't even want to brush up against convective activity, if I can clear a cloud by a deviation of not more than 4 miles and I'm flying the airway centerline, I won't even ask for the deviation.  I'll just do it.  Remember the airway is 8 nm wide so although I recommend flying the centerline when possible, if flying around weather, use all of it.

 

The Instrument Rating is a very valuable Rating to be used for benign weather flying such as approaches to coastal airports in conditions down to minimums, benign stratus clouds above the freezing level, low level stratus in the Midwest to airports above minimums, and similar kinds of conditions.  If any convection is around, it is useless in my opinion, and I wouldn't consider going IMC.  Tracking the Lifted index and K Factor of the areas in which you intend to fly will go a long way towards keeping you safe.

 

Regarding Weather Books:  I've always recommended Robert Buck's book, but additionally I recommend "Severe Weather Flying" by Dennis Newton, a book I have read many times.

 

Don Kaye, MCFI

[jlunseth]

I agree on the concerns about turbulence and icing.  I can't remember ever being turned down for deviations for weather.  On a handful of occasions the deviations have been as much as 60 miles to get around some convective activity.  If the deviation is that large, ATC is sooner or later going to want a waypoint that you are going to deviate to, but they will still give you the deviation.  I also echo the comments about summer icing.  The worst icing is usually in the tops, and it is possible, indeed likely that you will get hit with SLD icing if you are in a summer convective cloud top above the freezing level for even a few seconds.  Not to mention the discomfort of the turbulence.  If you do not have on board weather, ATC can help, but I would much rather have the information and make my own decision rather than rely on that of someone sitting at a panel in a nice, safe, ground floor room, who may or may not be a pilot, and who in any event handles mostly jet and turbine traffic.  I have XM myself.

 

Needing a deviation is common in the summer in the midwest, there will always be a few clouds towering above the layer and there is no point in going through them.  I honestly don't remember a single trip of any length where a deviation of some kind was not needed.

 

I am almost never on an airway, most trips are direct, airport to airport.  Not being on an airway, I ask for a deviation even if it is for a short dodge around one cloud top.

 

I would just mildly disagree with Don about not flying if there is any convection around.  That is pretty much our entire summer.  I have a turbo, like Don, so am usually able to fly above whatever layer might exist, leaving only the convective cloud tops or convective fronts to deal with, and you can normally see those hundreds of miles off.  I won't ever launch into or through a strong convective front that has significant "yellow" and "red" activity, plus probably some hail and circulation.  However, many times I have skirted along such fronts with a deviation from ATC, or flown around isolated blossoming tops, it is not that big a deal.  We also invariably will need to climb or descend through "popcorn" cumulus to get above the layer.  Just because it is convective doesn't mean it is going to be a problem other than being bumpy, but if the NEXRAD is showing color, or the cloud is dark and ominous, I would prefer to go around.  I am pretty sure Don is on the same page.

 

The usual vernacular for a short deviation is to request a "deviation right (or left) of course 10 degrees."  Any number up to 15 degrees is usually inconsequential to ATC.  This is what I heard others using when I first began flying IMC, and what I do.  They will normally clear you for the deviation, with an instruction to "report when back on course direct KXYZ."  A deviation of more than 15 degrees may prompt ATC to ask for a more detailed explanation of the reason.  But remember, they are looking at radar also and can see the same weather you are flying around, so they will get it.  Also, if you are deviating around some piece of weather you can bet everyone else is also, and you are not the only person asking for the deviation.  Even the big iron will be doing that with some storm fronts.

 

The one issue that occurred to me early on is whether, once I am around a cloud, I should return to the original course and resume flying that course, or just go direct from the point where I have cleared the cloud.  ATC seems to expect aircraft to go direct from the point where the deviation stops, so that is typically what I do now unless instructed otherwise.   

[WardHolbrook]

I hear what you guys are saying about avoidance and I could not possibly agree more. The entire point of airborne wx radar, spherics detectors, XM weather and all of the other tools we have to choose from is for avoidance, not to aid in penetration. Here's a question, for you guys who fly at night - how do you keep out of those small cells that we are talking about, many of which are too small ti be painting on the radar or throwing sparks for the spherics detectors? What keeps you guys who fly IFR at night out of these? 

[Earl]

I would never penetrate a buildup at 18K feet for all the reasons stated above by others.  Likewise I have never had ATC deny a request for deviation and I fly in the southeast US so I get plenty of opportunities to deviate.  As for the last question I have an easy answer.  I don't fly at night, VFR or IFR.  Just a personal risk management decision on my part and it has never been a problem for me in my business or pleasure travel.

[jlunseth]

I hear what you guys are saying about avoidance and I could not possibly agree more. The entire point of airborne wx radar, spherics detectors, XM weather and all of the other tools we have to choose from is for avoidance, not to aid in penetration. Here's a question, for you guys who fly at night - how do you keep out of those small cells that we are talking about, many of which are too small ti be painting on the radar or throwing sparks for the spherics detectors? What keeps you guys who fly IFR at night out of these? 

 

I do fly at night, but not alot.  About 15% of my hours are night time.  I mentioned being above the layer most of the time in the turbo, and that is where I typically am at night.  The majority of the time the Mark I eyeballs are primary for seeing and avoiding anything not sparking or showing on the NEXRAD.  My NEXRAD shows cloud cover also, and you can typically tell from the color whether there is some kind of build up going on (whiter is higher), but that function is not the best and I do not rely on it much.  Most of the time the Mark I system is fine because there is either enough light to see, or if not, you will see the ground lights and the stars disappearing.  I can't remember ever blundering into nonsparking convection at night, even on a moonless night you would know it because the stars would disappear.  Visibility at night is usually excellent. 

 

In our area the cumulus usually lays down as the ground cools at night, so it is not much of an issue.  One avoidance technique if the winds aloft are not an issue, is to just go to 14k or higher, you will be above pretty much anything in this area that is not engaging in some kind of drama, and if there is drama you stay away. 

 

I have on a couple of occasions gone along a stratus or cumulostratus undercast with tops around 10k at night,  If the clouds get higher and you find yourself dipping into the tops you need to put a stop to it, go higher or whatever it takes, because there will often be ice in the very tops even in the middle of the summer.

 

All that said, bear in mind that I have taken a good look at the weather before departing, and if the weather indicated layering up to the flight levels, or broad convective activity, or any signficant chance of icing, I am probably not up in the air experiencing any of it, I am on a mattress on a floor somewhere.  If there is convective activity at night, I generally will have charted a course well clear to get around it, I will have filed that course with ATC, and I will follow that course rather than trying to skirt along the front with only the Mark I system for avoidance.

 

Among the many weather products that help in figuring out if there is going to be high tops or layering is the infrared satellite.  By subtracting the ground temp from the coldest temps on your course and dividing by two (for 2C per thousand feet), you will get an approximation of the highest tops on the route.  If they are at ten then you fly at 14 or 16 and the view is great.  Another excellent product that does something similar is the Satellite image on Foreflight.  Unlike the Satellite image on aviationweather.gov, which does not show clouds at night because they are not in the sunlight, the Foreflight image does show night clouds.  From the color, you can generally tell where there might be billowing tops.

 

One thought occurred to me as I was writing this, and that is that my frame of reference is the large middle part of the country where there are no mountains or oceans.  I have also flown in the mountains and on the coasts, but very little at night, and the weather conditions there are unique enough that I would want to talk to a local experienced pilot before flying on anything other than a CAVU night.  I know the midwestern weather and how it functions reasonably well.  I don't know night mountain or ocean conditions.

 

The bottom line is to be more conservative about going up at all at night. 

[mooniac15u]

I hear what you guys are saying about avoidance and I could not possibly agree more. The entire point of airborne wx radar, spherics detectors, XM weather and all of the other tools we have to choose from is for avoidance, not to aid in penetration. Here's a question, for you guys who fly at night - how do you keep out of those small cells that we are talking about, many of which are too small ti be painting on the radar or throwing sparks for the spherics detectors? What keeps you guys who fly IFR at night out of these? 

 

I got vectored into a small cell one night while getting vectors for an ILS.  At 3000 ft with the AI reading level and the VSI pegged at a 1500 fpm descent It was the only time I actually thought I was going to die in my Mooney.  Fortunately that downdraft almost immediately turned into an updraft.  ATC wasn't particularly helpful as they admonished me to "maintain 3000".  That's also the first time I told ATC "unable".

 

After that, no more night IFR for this guy.  I also bought an XM weather receiver.

[Marauder]

I got vectored into a small cell one night while getting vectors for an ILS.  At 3000 ft with the AI reading level and the VSI pegged at a 1500 fpm descent It was the only time I actually thought I was going to die in my Mooney.  Fortunately that downdraft almost immediately turned into an updraft.  ATC wasn't particularly helpful as they admonished me to "maintain 3000".  That's also the first time I told ATC "unable".

 

After that, no more night IFR for this guy.  I also bought an XM weather receiver.

 

Amen brother. You have one of those experiences, the memory bank doesn't forget. I had a similar experience. I had just passed my IFR exam and found out the instructor forgot to sign something that was required. Unfortunately he decided to go to Boston on vacation for two weeks and I didn't want to wait for him to get back. Since I wasn't technically legal for IFR, I asked another instructor to fly with me to Boston to get his signature on the paperwork. Knowing that I just passed the practical, he had me file for the night flight. Same situation, IMC most of the way, ran into a building cumulus at night and found out what raw adrenaline smells like. 

 

Whomever came up with the line, "Whatever doesn't kill me, makes me stronger" almost had it right. I prefer "Whatever doesn't kill me, makes me smarter". My mission in life is now to be dumber... 

[WardHolbrook]

You guys have got it figured out. The bottom line is that it's all about avoidance and that has to be done visually, either with the old-fashioned eyeball or with the various "electronic eyeballs" that you need to use when you're IMC. Please be VERY careful when you're betting the farm with XM weather. "Most" of the time, it's just fine, but there are days and situations when it's way too slow to be of any practical help tactically. Yesterday I flew from SNA to BED and had to fly through 2 lines of very significant weather. Our Falcon 900 is well equipped for this - we have weather radar, dual LSS (spherics detector) and XM weather. We were at FL410 and could "eyeball" most of the weather. The tops were growing at an incredible rate and XM was next to useless for anything other than basic awareness that "yes, there is some bad stuff over in that direction." It just couldn't keep up with all of the action. So as far as the use of "electronic eyeballs" go, you've got to completely understand the equipment you're using, including its strengths, weaknesses and limitations. You've got to make sure that you never ever out fly your "eyes". Something that's all too easy with XM weather. That's like out-driving your low-beams at night - not too smart.  When it comes to flying at night, you've just got to accept the fact that there will be those cells that you can't see that you're going to fly through. With experience you get pretty good at figuring out where they are, but you're still going to fly through them on occasion.      

[Bob - S50]

Use your emergency authority and turn to a heading that will keep your aircraft and crew from damage.  Tell ATC I need and will be turning to this heading to remain clear of the TS.

 

Nate

Been there, done that... twice.  Both times in a DC9.  Once with Miami Center and once with Minneapolis Center.  Both times we asked to deviate but were not given permission in time.  Both times we did what we needed to do and I told the FO to tell them we were deviating to avoid thunderstorm penetration.  Neither time did they give us any grief.

 

Bob

[midlifeflyer]

I liked Don's post but disagree about just doing the deviations without notifying ATC. it's tempting to think of the airway being 4 miles wide but that's defined as protected airspace, not as a place for us to meander back and forth. And it assumes our equipment is perfect and so is the equipment of that other airplane also doing unannounced 10 degree deviations just beyond lateral separation minima (I have seen ATC radar feeds during convective activity).

Besides, I can't think of a single good reason not to.

[chrisk]

Imagine you are on an IFR flight plan at 15K flying above cumulous tops that vary from 10K - 13K and 40 miles ahead you see a buildup to what looks to be 18K.  If you request a diversion but are denied do you a) cancel IFR and go around VFR or fly through it?  Please assume you have no nexrad or spherics device.

 

Does your answer change if you do have a stormscope and it shows there is electrical activity in the area but not in the particular buildup ahead? 

 

 

I'm glad you asked this question because I could use advice on when to ask for a diversion.   It's really clear if you see a 30,000 foot monster out front that you should avoid it at all cost.  In the example above, the one cloud is almost a mile taller than the others, so that would be enough for me to avoid it.  But what if it was 2000 feet taller than all the other clouds around?  Does the width of the cloud matter at all?  Hoping I can learn from others experience.

[Bob - S50]

Thanks, gentlemen, but let me sharpen the question a bit. 

 

Do I sense from everyone that, absolutely, positively you're not flying into a cloud that has an 18K top?  After all, there are lots of cumulus clouds around that are benign.  The only difference is this one has an extra 5K or so of development.  And let's say my stormscope shows no activity.  Still a no go?  What I'm trying to get at isn't the likelihood of being granted a diversion or the alternatives if denied, but the danger that does or doesn't exist in a cumulus cloud with a little more vertical development than surrounding.  My training simply didn't address such subtles and, in California, you just don't get a lot of practice with such things.

When it doubt, stay out!

 

Its better to ask to deviate, use your emergency power if need be, then have to answer to the FAA than to enter the weather and find yourself in a life threatening situation.  If the FAA asks (and they did ...not... ask me the two times I used my emergency authority) just tell them in your opinion it would have been unsafe to enter the weather based on the information you had available to you.

 

Bob

[smccray]

When it doubt, stay out!

 

Its better to ask to deviate, use your emergency power if need be, then have to answer to the FAA than to enter the weather and find yourself in a life threatening situation.  If the FAA asks (and they did ...not... ask me the two times I used my emergency authority) just tell them in your opinion it would have been unsafe to enter the weather based on the information you had available to you.

 

Bob

 

Agreed.  We get a lot of cumulus clouds in TX with tops as low as 100-130.  I generally fly at 080-010.  I've flown around a number of cumulus clouds and I choose not to fly through them even if tops are only 1000 feet above my current altitude with total height less than 3000 ft.  There's just no reason to mess with the clouds if it's easy to go around them.  

 

One time during my IFR training we were flying back from south Texas probably at 10K feet.  There was a scattered layer at probably 7K ft with tops at 8K and build ups extending up to 12K+ and the tops cauliflowering.   Rather than maintain the course under the hood I pulled off the hood and I got some great experience flying around cumulus clouds.  At one point we let the tip of the left wing penetrate one of the build ups- less than 5 ft of the wing.  I could feel the vibration in the whole airframe.  No reason to fly through that- it's just not fun.  ATC isn't going to direct me into that.

 

On the subject of ATC directing me into a tall build-up, under no circumstances would I accept an instruction from ATC that I wasn't comfortable with.  During my Mooney transition training, we were doing stalls.  I was uncomfortable with the whole thing, I didn't say anything, and stopped flying the plane.  My hand was on the yoke, but I wasn't positively controlling the plane.  I didn't transfer the controls- we were just hanging out at 5K ft, slow, and I was scared.  The instructor, an F15 and American Airlines pilot, and the coast to speed record holder in a Mooney Acclaim, noticed what happened he regained positive control.  He admonished me and said that it doesn't matter if Chuck Yager was sitting next to me in the plane.  If I'm flying the plane, tell Chuck Yager to back off and shut up b/c I'm flying the damn plane.  In other words, never relinquish control (or decision making authority) of the airplane if you're the pilot.  We've all heard it before, but if you're flying the plane don't ever stop flying the plane no matter what happens.  It was a good lesson learned.  I would be crazy not to use resources like ATC or Chuck Yager sitting next to me, but in the end I would not substitute ATCs instructions for what I see out my own windscreen.  ATC isn't flying the plane.

 

ATC wanted to vector me under a disipating isolated cell 2 weeks ago when coming back into Dallas.  See the flight HERE.  I watched the cell on XM all the way from KC.  NE of Dallas, the cell was weakening and ATC wanted me to resume the STAR which went right through the middle of the cell.  ATC seemed to think that I was being too cautious as I gave that cell a wide birth, but that's okay.  I was down wind of the cell and I wasn't going to get too close, nor was I going to fly under the anvil.  I never had to give ATC an "unable" response, but I did tell them "no" when asked if I could fly direct to a fix on the arrival.  Some (not all) of the AA 737s weren't deviating for the weather and that's their choice, but I'm going to be a little more conservative.  Kudos to the controller- he never questioned PIC authority of any plane on his frequency and he accommodated every deviation request.  He was a fantastic resource.

[mike_elliott]

One of the things a new instrument pilot needs to learn is that ATC clearances need to be treated as "suggestions" (albeit VERY strong suggestions)  and that occasionally, they will "suggest" you fly a route, heading or altitude that either isn't feasible or will put you at risk. That's when you have the obligation to say "unable". In the early 1980's I saw a Turbo Commander sitting in a hangar at a factory service center that had bent a wing spar during an inadvertent T-Storm penetration. (The airplane was totaled - the wings were bent upward and one of the engines was loose in the mounts! The pilot was able to keep the airplane in the air and make a safe emergency landing. Those things were built like bricks - GREAT airplanes!) It was a scenario where ATC wasn't willing to give the pilot a clearance to deviate the way the pilot wanted, it would have resulted in the airplane flying into Mexican airspace. The pilot's mistake was not insisting and simply telling ATC what he had to do to ensure the safety of his airplane and passengers. 

 

Guys, I've made this suggestion before and I'll make it again - go on Amazon and get two books, Weather Flying by Robert Buck and Instrument Flying by Richard Taylor. Read those books through cover-to-cover a few times. Take notes. Weather Flying will help you understand how to fly weather and Instrument Flying will help you to understand how to work "the system". You can learn this stuff the hard way, by getting a few hundred hours of actual under your belt, or you can learn it the easy way by doing some reading. Your choice.

I have a copy that I was given by an FBO that I give my instrument students. When one student is done, he signs it, then will send it on to another student, etc. Eventually, when there is no more room for signatures, I am going to try to locate the estate of Richard Taylor and send it to them, along with a note of thanks for positively affecting all of the enclosed signed instrument pilots. I assume he is not with us any longer, as he was a full prof. at OSU 50 years ago. 

[mooniac15u]

I have a copy that I was given by an FBO that I give my instrument students. When one student is done, he signs it, then will send it on to another student, etc. Eventually, when there is no more room for signatures, I am going to try to locate the estate of Richard Taylor and send it to them, along with a note of thanks for positively affecting all of the enclosed signed instrument pilots. I assume he is not with us any longer, as he was a full prof. at OSU 50 years ago. 

 

I'm pretty sure he's still around.  Last I heard he was still a Professor Emeritus over at THE Ohio State University.

[midlifeflyer]

Is there anyone on this board who has ever asked for a en route weather deviation due to build-ups and been refused? If so, what were the circumstances?

[WardHolbrook]

Is there anyone on this board who has ever asked for a en route weather deviation due to build-ups and been refused? If so, what were the circumstances?

I've been asked to hold off for a short while due to conflicting traffic, but I've never been refused. The problem that you run into when diverting is that everyone tends to go for the same hole in the line. It's interesting to watch on the TCAS.

[Bob - S50]

Is there anyone on this board who has ever asked for a en route weather deviation due to build-ups and been refused? If so, what were the circumstances?

No, but I've been told I had to go left when I preferred right or vice versa.  The two times I used my emergency authority the controller was very busy.  One time we could not get them to answer us and the other he just didn't get back to us before we had to turn.

 

Bob

[PMcClure]

Once I was flying to Norfolk and was just west of Charlotte. There was a line of TS from SC to the Great Lakes. There was one hole, just by Charlotte. It was a 45 degree variation for me and right over CLT airport. The radio was hot with CLT traffic being directed through this hole. I requested a deviation through that pass and was denied. ATC told me they could not accommodate because of spacing for CLT arriving traffic. After a couple requests and a statement that I would have to divert and land at Hickory, the controller cleared me through that hole. They held CLT traffic  until I passed through the other side. The radio was silent for about 5 minutes as I diverted. Next call was Cactus 1234, following a Mooney! Then the calls started back up in a frantic pace. 

[DrBill]

A few weeks ago I was going to the SC Breakfast club (see video in other post).  Was in IMC at 3000 and ATC asked if I was OK flying through some rain showers.  I responded that rain was OK but nothing convective please..The clouds ahead did NOT look that dark. . I continued on course and we went through some VERY light rain. Once on the approach,  ATC asked how was the ride..  "No Problem" i replied. and we landed.  Right behind me were the 3 other planes coming to the breakfast and I'm sure the controller wanted some pireps of the approach. to pass on to them. This took place near the "V" in dashed blue line :

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N5612Q/history/20140608/1200Z/8A6/KUZA

I have found ATC most cooperative in deviations and keeping me clear of convective activity.

BILL