Actual IMC hours experience

[MooneyBob]

As I have received my instrument ticket recently I keep hearing and reading " When you get more IMC experience... ". I file IFR anytime I can but to get I the clouds is not that easy actually.

So my question is how much actual IMC hours ( and total hours so I can figure out the ratio) you have?

How many hours of actual you average per year?

Thanks

[Mooneymite]

My employer tracks those statistics for us....over the years, it seems to work out at about 10%, but if we used the strict "visible horizon", it would probably be a bit more.

[ArtVandelay]

and the follow up question would be, how many times are you hand flying during IMC?

[Bob_Belville]

When I was flying 225-250 hours a year, usually business travel, I was logging about 10% IMC. Now that I am retired that %age is more like 4%.

[carusoam]

How often are the approaches in IMC?

Best regards,

-a-

[PLN_FXR]

IMC hours and approaches depend on where one lives and the type of flying they do.  I'd guess if one lived in Tucson, and flew mostly locally, they would seldom log any actual time.  Most of my flying (which is about 300 hours a year since things slowed down the past +/-5 years) is upper Midwest and East coast; some months more than 25% of the time I'm actual IMC, with approaches on one or both ends.  As for hand flying ... I'm generally watching "George" fly while at altitude, and hand fly most of the approaches.

[MooneyBob]

My employer tracks those statistics for us....over the years, it seems to work out at about 10%, but if we used the strict "visible horizon", it would probably be a bit more.

The "visible horizon " caught my attention. Like this morning. I flew to KLEW Maine from KBLM NJ and it was so hazy ( but no clouds) at 7000' that I could see the ground only looking straight down. No horizon or any other reference out of the window. I had to fly by the instruments all the time. I couldn't spot any traffic that ATC was pointing to. Would that be the IMC?

[DrBill]

In the last year  I logged 62.4 hrs.   7.8 of that was Actual IMC,  8.9 of that was simulated (practice).

20 approaches flown of those I think (from memory) 4 of those were actual  (2 of those last week).

 

I am based at an airport w/o an instrument approach so I only take off when I know I can get back or am not coming back same day..  When the ceiling is below 2500 and I'm coming on on top, I fly the approach to the nearest airport, once below the layer, I cancel and continue VFR the 10 miles to my home field. With a ceiling of 1500- 2000, it's an easy flight.  if I breakout and it's too low, I just land. They are very good about letting me stay overnight for free and I get a ride.

 

Last year I did not have to take that option.

 

Most of my practice approaches are hand flown.  All of my IMC ones so far have been under autopilot.  My last one I had to reprogram the fix and I was already by it when I got it loaded.  ATC directed a right 360 and I completed the apporach, got under the layer, cancelled and flew home.

 

Hope this helps.

 

BILL

[Rwsavory]

The "visible horizon " caught my attention. Like this morning. I flew to KLEW Maine from KBLM NJ and it was so hazy ( but no clouds) at 7000' that I could see the ground only looking straight down. No horizon or any other reference out of the window. I had to fly by the instruments all the time. I couldn't spot any traffic that ATC was pointing to. Would that be the IMC?

Yes. Sounds like actual to me.

[Bob_Belville]

Ask John Kennedy, Jr. 

[Mooneymite]

The "visible horizon " caught my attention. Like this morning. ... No horizon or any other reference out of the window. I had to fly by the instruments all the time. I couldn't spot any traffic that ATC was pointing to. Would that be the IMC?

61.51

(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

Generally true when there is no visible horizon, but not specifically stated in this paragraph.

[DonMuncy]

I have about 1100 hours total, and about 90 actual.

[Mooneymite]

There are some (not me) who opine that jet time is just about all instrument time since it would be darn near impossible to fly RVSM airspace without reference to instruments.

I guess the fact that the autopilot uses the instruments is "close enough" to fulfill "solely by reference". An interesting argument, but I doubt an airline interview board would be impressed.

[MooneyBob]

Ask John Kennedy, Jr. 

I just googled it. Interesting facts I never knew. Thanks.

[Mooneymite]

I just googled it. Interesting facts I never knew. Thanks.

Violation!!!

MooneyBob, if you are going to post on Mooneyspace, you can't admit there's anything you didn't know.

It's in the terms of service, I'm sure. :-)

[WardHolbrook]

15,000 hours total. 1056 hours of actual instrument and 1623 instrument approaches  (Plus another 600 hours in sims and 100 hours of hood time.) over the 40 years I've been instrument rated. You don't get a lot of actual in jets.

[WardHolbrook]

There are some (not me) who opine that jet time is just about all instrument time since it would be darn near impossible to fly RVSM airspace without reference to instruments.

I guess the fact that the autopilot uses the instruments is "close enough" to fulfill "solely by reference". An interesting argument, but I doubt an airline interview board would be impressed.

It's been my experience that it would be pretty much impossible to fly any of the jets I've flown without instrument reference. At least not to the standards required. That said, I only log as actual instrument time that time when I am actually IMC, in other words, only that time that I am actually in the clouds. There are other times when you could log actual, but I've never bothered to do it. You're not going to impress anyone with the argument that "all of my instrument time is hand-flown. I don't use autopilots." It's easy enough to tell if a guy knows how to hand-fly instruments, it seldom takes more than a few minutes. At some point, instrument flying becomes second nature, just as flying visually is. 

[midlifeflyer]

61.51

(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

Generally true when there is no visible horizon, but not specifically stated in this paragraph.

 

It's based on an old FAA Chief Counsel interpretation commonly referred to as the "moonless night" letter. It's from 1984 and too old for the current interpretation database:

 

November 7, 1984

Mr. Joseph P. Carr

 

Dear Mr. Carr:

   This is in response to your letter asking questions about instrument flight time.

   First, you ask for an interpretation of Section 61.51©(4) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) regarding the logging of instrument flight time. You ask whether, for instance, a flight over the ocean on a moonless night without a discernible horizon could be logged as actual instrument flight time.

 

[unrelated portion snipped]

 

   As you know, Section 61.51©(4) provides rules for the logging of instrument flight time which may be used to meet the requirements of a certificate or rating, or to meet the recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. That section provides in part, that a pilot may log as instrument flight time only that time during which he or she operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments, under actual (instrument meteorological conditions (imc)) or simulated instrument flight conditions. "Simulated" instrument conditions occur when the pilot's vision outside of the aircraft is intentionally restricted, such as by a hood or goggles. "Actual" instrument flight conditions occur when some outside conditions make it necessary for the pilot to use the aircraft instruments in order to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. Typically, these conditions involve adverse weather conditions.

 

   To answer your first question, actual instrument conditions may occur in the case you described a moonless night over the ocean with no discernible horizon, if use of the instruments is necessary to maintain adequate control over the aircraft. The determination as to whether flight by reference to instruments is necessary is somewhat subjective and based in part on the sound judgment of the pilot. Note that, under Section 61.51(d)(3), the pilot must log the conditions of the flight. The log should include the reasons for determining that the flight was under actual instrument conditions in case the pilot later would be called on to prove that the actual instrument flight time logged was legitimate.

 

[unrelated portion snipped]

 

Sincerely,

/s/

John H. Cassady

Assistant Chief counsel

Regulations and Enforcement Division

[Seth]

11% of my time or just over 100 hours of actual followed up by 50-70 hours of hood time (don't know that stat off the top of my head - but I know I just crossed 100 hours of actual).

 

So, if you are using your Mooney to go places, 10% sounds about right.  I agree that if flying more for pleasure around the pattern/hamburger run and only in good weather, you'll get less actual.

 

About half of that was in my former F model which had a wing leveler but was all hand flown.  My Missile has an AP and I admit, flying with an AP allows you to manage the airplane as opposed to work and manage the airplane. 

 

I'm based on the East Coast in the Mid Atlantic - different areas have different "normal" weather which will affect your IMC totals.

 

-Seth

[chrisk]

In general, I don't get much time in real IMC time.   Most of the en route time is generally in VMC, over clouds.   I log the time to blast through the cloud deck (often about 0.1 hours), and descend through a layer (another 0.1 ).  And even when flying the approach in IMC, it is seldom more than 0.5.   --But there have been those other times....when you find your self in it for a bit.  A thick layer and ugly headwinds up high is a time when you might choose to fly a lot of cross country in IMC.  The last time was 1.5 hours at night.  And it was bumpy enough that I did a lot of it by hand. 

 

On a side note, the last time I went to Galveston, the air was very stable, but with 600 foot ceilings and just over a mile of visibility.   There were lots of folks all over the Houston area that were out getting multiple approaches, presumably for currency.  --If I wasn't in a hurry, I would have done my 6 that morning.  Approaches are kind of fun when the air is smooth, you have lots of fuel, and you know where the VFR weather is.

[ArtVandelay]

On a side note, the last time I went to Galveston, the air was very stable, but with 600 foot ceilings and just over a mile of visibility.   There were lots of folks all over the Houston area that were out getting multiple approaches, presumably for currency.  --If I wasn't in a hurry, I would have done my 6 that morning.  Approaches are kind of fun when the air is smooth, you have lots of fuel, and you know where the VFR weather is.

Unlike VFR practice approaches, you have to had filed a IFR flight plan, is there some way of filing a IFR flight plan that includes low approaches for currency/practice?

[1964-M20E]

Unlike VFR practice approaches, you have to had filed a IFR flight plan, is there some way of filing a IFR flight plan that includes low approaches for currency/practice?

I've done it by just getting a local IFR clearance and telling ATC I want to fly several approaches and they will usually ask which approaches I want. 

 

Of course I’m near a class B airspace so it is probably  easier than if you are 50 miles form the nearest towered airport and have no approaches to you home filed.

[John Pleisse]

10% of my total time. I relegate most IMC work to maneuvering, climbing and descending through decks. No front penetration, no approaches to low mins. 750/1, no night and no circle to land......have been my mins for 15 years. If I am certain the viz is good underneath, I'll go lower.

[Bob - S50]

Bob,

 

18,200 total

1030 Actual instrument or about 5-6%.

As for hand flown....

In the DC9, hand flown until first level off or cleared above 10k.  Hand flown from cleared for the approach to landing unless it was a Cat II ILS.

In the 757/767, hand flown for a minute or two at both ends.

In the Mooney, hand flown until level off, AP for cruise on long flights, hand flown for the descent, approach, and landing.

 

Bob

[Awful_Charlie]

2000TT, 850 IFR, 340 instrument. I expect the percentage will be higher for IFR and less for actual in recent times, as the EU requirement for logging time relatively recently changed - we only used to log actual, and having gone turbo Mooney, it's much easier to get into the clear on top rather than ploughing through the clag. I tend to use the autopilot for the cruise and the long climbs, but normally fly the departures  by hand, and try to keep my hand in for the appraoches