Takeoff Flaps (Crosswind)

[HopePilot]

At my local airport you usually have a crosswind on the takeoff runway, which leads to some squirreliness near rotation (even trying to hold the aileron into the wind).  Is it better not to use flaps on takeoff when you have a crosswind and lots of runway?

[Hank]

     All of my takeoffs are no-flap, unless I'm loaded heavy. Home is 3001' with trees at each end, high enough that we have no approaches. Night landings are fun, since they obscure the runway end lights until short final. No flap departures, Takeoff flap landings, adjust flaps on final as needed.

[rob]

I don't find that the flaps have much of an impact on the takeoff into a crosswind. So I use them as called for in the POH of my 65C. Curious as to why you're trying to reinvent the wheel, Hank? Why wouldn't you use flaps as prescribed in the POH?

[Hank]

Rob--

My 1970 POH says this on p.3-12:

Before applying power for takeoff, quickly recheck for:

1. Propeller--FULL INCREASE.

2. Trim Indicator--TAKEOFF.

3. Flap Indicator--TAKEOFF or as desired.

4. Fuel Selector Handle--FULLER TANK.

I usually desire FLAPS UP, unless I am heavy. For crosswind, I simply accelerate a little faster and pop off the ground [p. 3-13]:

When making a cross-wind takeoff, hold the nose wheel on the runway longer and accelerate to a higher speed than normal. Pull up abruptly to avoid contact with the runway while drifting. When clear of the ground, make a coordinated turn into the wind to correct for drift.

My instructor at the MAPA PPP suggested putting the trim a little above Takeoff, so I spin the trim wheel so that the bottom of the nice, wide white stripe is touching the Takeoff line.

     For landing, I also follow my POH [p.3-23}:

BEFORE LANDING CHECKLIST

9. Flaps--As required.

10. Trim--As required.

LANDING

To allow for a safe margin above stall speed throughout approach, hold airspeed above 90 MPH until the flaps are lowered. Degree of flap deflection needed will vary according to landing conditions, but for most landings you should lower flaps about half way just prior to turning on to base leg. Extend flaps as required on final approach to adjust for variations in wind, glide angle, and other variables. On final, trim the aircraft to fly hands-off at an approach speed of about 80 MPH.

Yes, this runs counter to what many people here and on the MAPA boards say about make every landing with full flaps. All I can say is that this is taken directly from my POH--check your own and see what it says. YMMV and all that, too, but it works very well for me. Two Mooney CFI's agree--the one who transitioned me, and the MAPA PPP instructor who flies a 69 C-model.

     I did not delve into this in the original post because he was asking about crosswind takeoffs in a long-body, and we KNOW those handle differently. On my Instrument checkride, the wind was almost 90º to the runway and gusting into the mid-teens, and I just held her on the ground to a little above 75 and popped quickly into the air, making a comment as I passed 70 about "a little faster for the crosswind" and the DPE was fine with it.

     It's all part of the beauty of being PIC. When you're in command, you get to fly the plane your way.

[rob]

My 65C's POH doesn't read anything like that. It specifically says that flaps should be at the takeoff position for takeoff, and that "it is recommended that full flaps be used for all landings."

[Stefanovm]

I use full flaps for almost all landings. As far as I am concerned, less impact and tire wear. Over Memorial Day weekend, I was at Fort Huachuca / Sierra Vista, AZ. There was a 12 knot cross wind component and 8K+ density altitude. I used full flaps on most of the 10+ landings while giving rides. The mains were always straddling the centerline, even though the runway is ridiculously wide at 150 feet and 12,001 feet long.

One go around practice/demonstration to a passenger emphasized the need for cleaning and retrimming the airplane quickly, but cautiously. Best ROC was also important. The headwind component was close to 20 kts., so descent on final was helicopter like at 80 to 90.

Depending on the load, I use 1/3 flaps on takeoff. The take off seems smoother. From my grass strip, it gets me off the rough quicker and full flap landings are kinder to our turf. Due to intersection takeoff from runway construction at Fort Huachuca / Sierra Vista, AZ, retracting after takeoff was done with caution, but quickly. It was 8K+ density plus only 6k of runway. Not too short for getting off the ground, but I had to concentrate on best rate rather hard. Ground speed due to 8K+ density chewed up a lot of space before 400 ft agl. However, I was normally there very shortly before or after just passing the departure end.

[Alan Fox]

I always use takeoff flaps , as I am a shorter pilot , the nose down attitude is increased with the flaps..

[jlunseth]

I am experimenting with flaps up takeoff for that very reason.  My M20K goes nose down on takeoff alright, in fact, it wants to ride on the nose wheel and off the mains pretty much regardless of how much back pressure I have on the yoke.  Hoping that flaps up will fix that. 

[Piloto]

Quote: jlunseth

I am experimenting with flaps up takeoff for that very reason.  My M20K goes nose down on takeoff alright, in fact, it wants to ride on the nose wheel and off the mains pretty much regardless of how much back pressure I have on the yoke.  Hoping that flaps up will fix that. 

[jlunseth]

Quote: Piloto

José

  

[231Pilot]

I have always used takeoff flaps because it is in the POH and on the checklist.  Bob Kromer made this recommendation in his flying the M20J article in MAPA Log:

"The book recommends 15 degrees (the takeoff setting), but if the runway is longer than 3000 feet, consider not using flaps for takeoff. The takeoff distance might be a few hundred feet longer without flaps, but I think you'll find the airplane has much better liftoff and initial climb characteristics without flaps. My personal technique is not to use them if the runway length isn't critical."

I never thought about the effect flaps (or no flaps) might have on wavy or uneven runways....I have noticed a lot of bounce on takeoff at my home airport after work was done a few years ago.  We have plenty of length, so I'm going to try some no flap takeoffs and I'll let you know how it works out.

[Stefanovm]

My E stays planted longer without flaps. There is a tradeoff from my grass strip. It is bumpy, also less long at 2,500, but the sooner I get into the air, the better. Therefore take off flaps 99.9% of the time. Always, maybe not.