My MSC probably didn't try to kill me, but their carelessness could have - what's a reasonable resolution?

[Comatose]

I picked my plane up from annual today (at an MSC). I wasn't very happy with what I considered to be a excessively padded bill (3.25 hours to repaint a 3" x 4" spot on my vertical stabilizer, for example) but I'm willing to bite my tongue to get a better quality repair...

 

I take off, and on climbout get told "right to 320." Before I even get anywhere near 320 on my DG I can see something's not right - I'm pointed entirely the wrong direction. So, I turn to 320 based on my compass. Then my AI starts wandering. And... suction is reading zero. Great. I fly back to their ariport. 

 

I taxi back and after I report absolutely no suction they pull the top of the cowl off. There's the hose between my firewall and vacuum pump, flying free in the breeze, not connected to the firewall. The hose clamp hadn't even been slightly tightened - it was away from the hose a good 1/4." I had suction on initial start, so I'm sure that they just stuck it on and neglected to secure it. That seems unacceptable. 

 

I left it there. I wasn't about to take off into worsening weather with a vacuum pump that I don't trust not to self-destruct in the next few minutes.  I also wanted them deal with another poorly done repair. They left two pumps worth of air bubble in my flap hydraulic line, and some other smaller issues. I tell them I'll be back to pick it up Monday. 

 

Given that my vacuum pump was sucking whatever it could find under my cowl, entirely unfiltered, I figure if it self-destructs in suspiciously short order they owe me a new vacuum pump. I did get them to write a short note accepting responsibility for not securing it. Is that unreasonable? Too little? If they'd left an oil line unsecured and seized my engine I'd definitely feel like they owed me a new engine. 

 

Thanks for any insight. 

John

 

[MB65E]

Well since nobody else chimed in yet...Glad you made it back safely. IFR or VFR? Was the aircraft test flown? All places have their issues. Some of the better shops don't carry the MSC name. With the exception of possibly 5 or so great MSC(all named here regularly) I'd try and find a shop or guy that shares your passion for the aircraft. MSC or not. I would not worry about any damage done to the pump. Let it shake out over the weekend. If the shop is a good one, they will make it right. If not, move on and consider some place else. I've had shops leave oil lines loose, caps off, tools in, connectors unplugged, you name it. I've dorked up too. I hooked up an airspeed line incorrectly after removing the line to test the gear system on a Lancair. (Long direct phone call from the owner) There is nothing like fresh eyes and a good tug on everything you can grab on an un-cowled machine. Even if your not a tech, pull the cowl, look, grab, touch, pull, tap, whatever it takes to get a warm and fuzzy feeling that everything is right. You'll be surprised what you will find.

I don't find the adage of "but I'm paying this shop to do that" works on any machine worked on by humans.

Some of my general things I make a point to do, I try test fly everything myself before the Boss flys it. That's just one more step to ensure things are right. Also, allows me to tweak what needs adjusting rather than have a pilot try to explain it to me. Make the initial flight VFR. Also, no PAX on initial post MX flights. I don't care who worked on it, there is no reason to have PAX on board after MX. Some of the military guys I work with are amazed that civilian operators don't do post MX with their aircraft. They are so accustomed to FCF flights they think its crazy that there is no requirements for test flights etc. Finally, all initial run ups post MX have the cowl off. (This obviously helps see things, but also eliminates the need to pull the cowl twice).

Small rant... Sorry.

Was it Muncie Aviation? Just wondering?

Fly safe!

-Matt

[Marauder]

What you didn't indicate is how long you been using the shop. When I first bought my Mooney 23 years ago, I was told that best mechanic to use was the one from the local flight school. He was a good mechanic, on Cessnas. He knew little about the Mooney systems and I realize fairly quickly he was learning on my airplane. I thanked him for his work and then went on to another mechanic, this time however checking that the person knew something about Mooneys.

What happened to you could be an honest mistake, or just the indications of a sloppy mechanic.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Hank]

Sounds to me like he was interrupted and never got the clamp put on the line. Mistakes happen.

[PTK]

Great job in putting it back down safely.

I think reasonable resolution would be to first count your blessings!

According to Mike Busch 10% of failures are mifs. Maintenance Induced Failures.

This is why it's important to take a spin or two around the pattern after some invasive maintenance with the mechanic in the right seat!

Then find another shop and have this shop reimburse you for a new vacuum pump installed. Also have your AI and DG serviced for possible contamination and have them reimburse for this as well.

Clearly the mechanic didn't intend for this to happen. He is just careless and doesn't understand that the number one cause of vac pump failure is contamination, and how important it is to keep the pneumatic system clean.

[tomn]

I think it is a must to have a good understanding of whats under your cowl and the rest of your airframe. I have had a starter left loose, among other things, by mechanics who certainly did not intend to make the mistake. Regardless of intent or sloopy work, its up to you to be sure the plane is air worthy. Pull the cowl, check things over, do everything you can to be sure its all good. Ask them to show you what they worked on - everything that a wrench touched - then double check it for tightness etc. A good shop will appreciate and respect your dedication to safety. Assist with an annual if you have not done so already.

The bottom line is that mechanics, and pilots, are human. You must learn enough about your plane to be able to reasonably determine if it is air worthy if at all possible. I understand that not everyone is mechically inclined, and thats OK. You can still learn about the systems and how to tell if someithing is loose or tight and what it should look like when properly installed, serviced, etc. Expect mistakes and find them before they become a problem if you can.

One final thought - I will always fly the pattern for a little while after any work has been done. I'll then bring it back in and check things over again if neccessary depaending on the work that has been done. I may be overly cautious, but I've learned the hard way to be suspicious.

Fly safe...

Tom

[pinerunner]

If you've only got one story like this you must have very lucky over the years or not have flown that much. We had another thread/post along these lines. After any maintenance you should do the best preflight possible, even if was done by a fantastic shop. They work on so many different ltems that a stupid little human error type mistake can't quite be eliminated. I'm beginning to believe that the easiest parts to catch, like a loose nut at the end, are also the easiest to overlook. Kind of an end of the job, finish line in sight, letdown. Those kind of mistakes can usually be caught by a pilot going over it well during preflight.

 

Your experience may not mean that this MSC is one to be avoided. 

[PMcClure]

A mechanic should know better, but I know I am not that good either. My only suggested resolution would be to have a frank conversation with him and take steps to verify all work as best as you can for the future. It's your butt in the seat not his.

 

This is my post maintenance steps:  1. I have the mechanic leave the cowling off and I meet him before sign off. 2) I review everything that was done and the log books 3) personally inspect everything myself 4) put the cowling on 5) ask the mechanic if he wants to go flying 6) preflight, taxi run up as usual but add special review of engine out procedures and best landing sites on take off. 7) Circle the field for minimum of three passes in VFR.

 

I try to do this anytime there is heavy maintenance on the a/c. 

[John Pleisse]

If you are going to pick an MSC, query them on their A&P talent. Here in the DC metro, we have a Mooney SC that goes through A&P's like underwear and in PA at another Mooney SC, their average tenure is over 10 years. You ask the questions, you call the shots, you stay safe.

[Danb]

Pinerunner I couldn't agree more, yrs ago on a cherokee had a cal. replaced, I lost the engine over the Farmers mkt. and made it back to KILG, turned out the moron left a rag in the cylinder and there goes it.did get a sorry..Now since I'v owned Mooney's since 1987 I use a MSC and the shop does fly it before I do. as far as expecting a pilot to understand all this mechanical stuff is tough some of us are professional's DR's lawyers CPA"S etc. and are very limited as I am. I do my own oil change check everything out even though I'm clueless and go on my merry way. You depend on a Doc to do a heart bypass and I depend on my mechanic to be competent, do due diligence. I wish I was mechanically inclined but I'm not, thick this precludes me from being a good pilot, over 3000 hrs. and still alive..my .02

[N33GG]

When I pick up my aircraft after any serious maintenance, I arrive early and spend a LOT (typically an hour or more) of time slowly going over, under, and through the entire plane, including under the cowl. Then the flirst flight is considered and managed as a test flight. The MSC I use is great, but s#*t does happen.

Prior to owning this Mooney, I have had several airplanes and used other shops over the decades that I have been flying. There is not room to describe all the crap I have experienced. Hence, my over cautious behavior! Also, decades of being an engineer have taught me to expect everything to go wrong, and you will rarely be disappointed.

Like I said, stuff does happen. I try not to let it eat me up, and move on. Life is too short. But I totally sympathize with your frustration. I have been there, many times.

[flyboy0681]

If I had to reply on one of the finer points of the Cherokee series, it would be on the ability to unlatch the cowl and take a quick look around during preflight. That I miss... but it ends there. 

[jlunseth]

My favorite topic.  I have had several mechanics try to kill me.  You can point at an issue, ask them to evaluate it because you don't know the cause, they give you a wrong answer and it is a very wrong answer.  Like a loss of oil pressure at 19K over Lake Michigan wrong answer.  Or a "trainee" assembling something to your airplane and the A&P not observing and inspecting and it comes apart in flight wrong answer.  Or a certification of things that weren't done wrong answer, and you find yourself staring at a 450 and rising CHT.  Etc. etc.  I have a few rules now.  One, I want to know who is doing the work on my plane.  Not who the MSC or shop owner or IA is, but who is turning the wrench.  I am kind of fed up with the "new guy in the shop" syndrome, where the new guy gets to work on your plane, it gets sort of inspected, but everyone is in a hurry and stuff "sort of" gets missed.  Second, I want that person to be a pilot.  So they know what it is like to sit in the hot seat when a hose comes off in the air.  They seem to have a better appreciation for making sure that the hose does not come off, no way, no how, not ever.  Third, I take my aircraft almost always to an MSC, Willmar, because they know Mooneys and know how they fit together and what the problems are.  I even do that for oil changes (having had one of those messed up).  Certainly they are not perfect.  But they have an inate prioritization mechanism.  I am not quite sure how to explain it, and whether it is procedures, or supervision, or people, or caring more than the next guy, but if they make mistakes it is on the small stuff, maybe a log entry could have been better or something like that.  But they don't make mistakes on the "kill you" stuff. 

[aaronk25]

Brian the owner of Willmar Air is going to kill somebody. He is for the most part a one man band now trying to keep up with many airplanes. I have a laundry list of items that we had to correct, at his expense at another shop.

He either is trying to do to much work and working all hours of the night and/or is a little sloppy, I think a little of both.

At my last visit to Willmar (this is the short list) the flowing was done wrong:

Mags overhauls by Willmar timed 5 degrees off, loose coil in one, grease everywhere.

-alternator not tight, used 2 old bungee springs for preload instead of replacing with new. Several rod end jam nuts left loose, routed ils antenna though controls in tail which severed the cable, logged the PROP GOVERNOR AS OVERHAULED, but never even removed it, didn't hook up the rear running light, replaced all windows and he didn't even put sealant under the area where the glass meets the frame he just smeared sealant around the outside edges so all windows leaked and had to be fixed.

The list goes on and on....maybe when he finally runs the shop into the ground we can get a MSC that could take great care of our planes.

The work that was done was from a gear up repair and at the same time I had him complete other tasks while it was down for service.

I'm surprised he is still in business and I'd be glad to talk to anyone about my experience...PM me for my cell phone.

I've heard good things about the mechanic at Benson, as he used to work for Bruce when he owned Willmar Mooney, back when it was a top notch service center.

Paul at weep no more has his own shop, he also use to work for Bruce and does great tank sealant work, but since Brian bought the shop all the great mechanics have left, leaving him understaffed and obviously not caring about the safety of pilots.

[BigTex]

Everyone on MS has a long list of horror stories but the main takeaway is ALL shops will have MIF's.  There's not a single shop out there that hasn't screwed up, so we should expect it.  Anyone that doesn't is a fool and possibly a dead one.

[1964-M20E]

 I have a few rules now.

One, I want to know who is doing the work on my plane. 

(Me I turn the wrenches and let the A&P or IA do the inspecting

)

Second, I want that person to be a pilot. (that's me again)

 

Third, I take my aircraft almost always to an MSC, Willmar,(I don't mainly they are not close enough to satisify number 1 above.)

 

 

Everyone can and will make mistakes hopefully you can live and learn from them. I like to be on the wrenches because then I'm responsible and I know what was done. I have spent the past 4 years building an inventory of Mooney specific and aircraft specific tools so that I am prepared to handle whatever my Mooney requires.  I have also participated in 3 annuals so far with my mechanic and we are preparing for the fourth.  I try to learn a little more each time and I now do about 90% of the work while the mechanic does the inspections.  This does not save me that many $ but I do know the plane well.  I even feel comfortable doing my own pre-buy inspection with minimal assistance from a mechanic.

 

[bonal]

The thing I love the most at my msc is they allow owner assist. I do a lot of the work myself and they check me but believe me I follow them on all the stuff they do to make sure its done right.  and the service manager double checks each item before its signed off. mine goes in next month but should be routine since last years (its first) with me as new owner we fixed everything. Around 16 grand good job on the safe landing by the way. After my cessna got an annual its first flight we dropped a cylinder at 150ft agl on take off.

[OR75]

the title of this thread seems a bit strong. Was there intent ?

[PTK]

Brian the owner of Willmar Air is going to kill somebody. He is for the most part a one man band now trying to keep up with many airplanes. I have a laundry list of items that we had to correct, at his expense at another shop.He either is trying to do to much work and working all hours of the night and/or is a little sloppy, I think a little of both.At my last visit to Willmar (this is the short list) the flowing was done wrong:Mags overhauls by Willmar timed 5 degrees off, loose coil in one, grease everywhere.-alternator not tight, used 2 old bungee springs for preload instead of replacing with new. Several rod end jam nuts left loose, routed ils antenna though controls in tail which severed the cable, logged the PROP GOVERNOR AS OVERHAULED, but never even removed it, didn't hook up the rear running light, replaced all windows and he didn't even put sealant under the area where the glass meets the frame he just smeared sealant around the outside edges so all windows leaked and had to be fixed.The list goes on and on....maybe when he finally runs the shop into the ground we can get a MSC that could take great care of our planes. The work that was done was from a gear up repair and at the same time I had him complete other tasks while it was down for service. I'm surprised he is still in business and I'd be glad to talk to anyone about my experience...PM me for my cell phone. I've heard good things about the mechanic at Benson, as he used to work for Bruce when he owned Willmar Mooney, back when it was a top notch service center.Paul at weep no more has his own shop, he also use to work for Bruce and does great tank sealant work, but since Brian bought the shop all the great mechanics have left, leaving him understaffed and obviously not caring about the safety of pilots.

If you don't like this individual you can find another mechanic.

But please don't say he is going to kill somebody! You have a laundry list of things you claim he did wrong but have no proof. Just your opinion.

It's not fair to bash the gentleman behind his back without any proof and without inviting him allowing him the opportunity to respond. Unless you want to damage his reputation.

I don't pay any attention to one sided criticism. I want to hear both sides.

He is very capable I'm sure and a very hard worker. Willmar is a very reputable MSC.

[aaronk25]

If you don't like this individual you can find another mechanic.

But it's not fair to bash the gentleman behind his back without any proof or allowing him the opportunity to respond.

He is very capable I'm sure and a very hard worker. Willmar is a very reputable MSC.

It's not fair to sign a airplane off as airworthy with the above list....life isn't fair. He can come on here and give his 2 cents if he wanted to. I could post pics too!

Willmar air service is not the same as I was led to believe. Go have then work on your plane....have fun....

[aaronk25]

How's this for proof this is the work that Brian at Willmar personally did. I the insurance company paid to re-skin a wing look at the pictures he didn't even put rivets in some of the holes...

All he did here was cover these holes with sealant making it look like rivets were installed:

The stuff in my hand is what he left in the wing as he didn't even bother to vacuum it out...after installing the new wing skin.

How about installing brand new glass and the mechanic doesn't take the time to put the sealant between the glass and the fame instead just smears it around the out side so it fails in a year? Flew though rain and got soaked....

The photos above don't show a "whoops I forgot" it show a crooked mechanic with a complete disregard for his. customers safety.

There is a lot of good mechanics out there but these shops are always moving targets and we need to keep each other informed. Sorry for the rant I stayed quiet for a while but I guess this thread set me off...

[Danb]

Jeez...I'd be pissed to!!!!!

[Guest]

How's this for proof this is the work that Brian at Willmar personally did. I the insurance company paid to re-skin a wing look at the pictures he didn't even put rivets in some of the holes...

All he did here was cover these holes with sealant making it look like rivets were installed:

The stuff in my hand is what he left in the wing as he didn't even bother to vacuum it out...after installing the new wing skin.

How about installing brand new glass and the mechanic doesn't take the time to put the sealant between the glass and the fame instead just smears it around the out side so it fails in a year? Flew though rain and got soaked....

The photos above don't show a "whoops I forgot" it show a crooked mechanic with a complete disregard for his. customers safety.

There is a lot of good mechanics out there but these shops are always moving targets and we need to keep each other informed. Sorry for the rant I stayed quiet for a while but I guess this thread set me off...

I'd suggest bringing your concerns forward to Mooney. They certainly don't want the reputation of the plane and company damaged by poor work carried out by an authorized service center.

I am proud to represent three different manufactures in my shop. While we are not perfect, I always say that if I would not put my loved ones in the plane I should not ask you to put your loved ones in it.

Clarence

[PLN_FXR]

Lots of stuff above; some good, some otherwise.  As tomn stated above, we are all human ... as inexcusable as mistakes are, we all make them.  I am surprised a vacuum hose would come off in flight unless it was short/misrouted, as the vacuum produced by the pump would tend to keep the hose on, not blow it off - it must have been in place but not slid onto the pump fitting.

 

There is a, or there are several, lesson(s) here for all of us.  If nobody learns anything else, please all remember never to launch into IMC, night-time, or any marginal conditions following "heavy" maintenance on your aircraft (by "heavy", I mean any time enough work was accomplished you are not assured all systems have been  tested).  Example 1 - you did an oil and filter change; easy to accomplish a run-up and leak check on the ground, then return the aircraft to service without restriction.  Example 2 - fuel tanks were resealed, magneto 500-hour inspections were accomplished, & ailerons were re-rigged ... make a check flight first, prior to launching into the dark or with passengers.  These items can be checked on the ground, but what if one tank doesn't feed at power, your engine misses at takeoff power, or your bird flies differently than you are used to?  These are arbitrary examples, but you get the drift.  

[Oscar Avalle]

Mistakes happen... For example, I had a TCAS installed. I took the plane up today in IFR. Everything was looking great and suddenly in IMC the autopilot, TCAS and Stormscope all went blank! What had happened the avionics shop had wired everything on ONE, yes ONE, circuit-breaker. My mistakes not to test fly in VFR... Lesson learned.