Whats going on with values of the older fleet?

[pinerunner]

We'll see what the prices are when I get around to selling mine. I've gotten so much satisfaction out of the challenge of aviation that I have no regrets (or at least very few). My old M20E fits the mission perfectly.

[KSMooniac]

It is sad seeing the values declining towards scrap value.  Until the regs are lightened, it will continue as the cost to keep them going keeps climbing, and doesn't add to the value in a dollar for dollar fashion.  Planes that are updated and kept flying regularly are still in demand, though, at least for now.  

 

I don't even pretend to justify it...for me aviation is my biggest passion, hobby, professional interest, and provides very, very useful/practical transportation.  I'm looking forward to buying/building a big fancy hangar someday, and hope it only sells as part of my estate someday so I don't care about the value in it.  I don't have too many other expensive hobbies with ongoing costs like golf/tennis/country club activities, scuba diving, etc.  I enjoy snow skiing, but am glad I don't have to pay anything to keep "current" or maintain a membership.  Ditto for shooting sports.  Fun cars and motorcycles also attract my interest, but I'm getting out of those to concentrate on starting some aviation-related side biz ventures.  I just hope there is a market left when I finally get something off the ground!

[ryoder]

One of the previous owners spent a ton putting in a ADF and a new transponder back in the day. I think he dropped 20k on it in the early 80s. I'll probably just fly on steam gauges and supplement with portable electronics to keep from sinking money into the airframe. I am kind of cheap at heart and just can't see the point in investing in an airplane. But I will probably rebuild my motor because that will maintain value even if my airframe corrodes to scrap in five years. Let's hope it doesn't.

[Rhumbline]

Make it safe and then reliable.  Fool around with gadgets after that if you wish.   

[Bob_Belville]

ISTM we need to be realistic with our expectations. If I buy a nice car for $40k, what will it be worth in 10 years? Not much if I drive it 20,000 miles a year, even if I take good care of it. I once paid $50,000 for a used 500MB hard drive for a Data General mini computer (new would have been 100k). In a few years the drive was worthless. 

 

If an airframe is analogous to a car and avionics is like a computer or other electronics we would expect to see significant depreciation, even if we care great care of out machinery. My plane is 49 years old. The panel is getting older every day and for electronics, like a dog, every year is like 7 years. 

 

We are actually lucky in a way that there's any value in such old machinery. These are not collector items, they're a tool, a (wonderful) ride. 

[garytex]

Every so often plane values get stupid low, then stupid high. In 1986 you could buy a Cessne 185 for $12,000.  We've probably got at least a couple years of good economy ahead, and prices will rebound some.  Operative word: some.  We will still accrue value for being at the high end of the utility spectrum. There is still nothing that turns gas into less noise and more speed than a Mooney.  That may become more important in the future.  

There is always an irrational or intangible side to value however, and I think Mooneys are perceived now to be slightly out on the "kwerky" side.  (And I wonder if we aren't somewhat responsible for presenting that face)

Another intangible that I think takes some off the top of the value of the metal fleet, is that our airplanes no longer look like the latest and greatest.  So the same guy that boosts his self image and self esteem buying more and a newer car than optimal, is out of the market for our airplanes.  He buys fiberglass.  And drives a BMW.  As proof of this observation, have you ever noticed what a nice bunch of folks you run into driving Mooneys?  And how many stories of driving rudeness start "Well, this prick in a BMW…"  :-)

[KSMooniac]

This prick owns TWO BMW's and a Mooney.  

 

(but I consider myself a connoisseur of fine driving machines rather than a pretentious status-shower.  My "new" BMW is a 2004 I bought in 2011, and my old one is an '88 classic M6, and I just sold my '99 BMW motorcycle) 

[fantom]

This prick owns TWO BMW's and a Mooney.

(but I consider myself a connoisseur of fine driving machines rather than a pretentious status-shower.)

In that case Scott, you've probably never driven an 'older' Porsche.

[KSMooniac]

In that case Scott, you've probably never driven an 'older' Porsche.

 

That's true... because I enjoy driving them more than wrenching on them.  

 

(I'm sure I would enjoy them immensely... I like lots of cars)

[larryb]

An airplane is just a machine. Most machines will depreciate and lose value over time. One should buy an airplane for the utility it provides, not as an investment. Another point, the cost of an airplane is NOT in the purchase, it's in the operation. If you buy a medium priced Mooney the operating costs, all-in,  will equal the purchase price in just a few years. About 3 years in my case.

[garytex]

KS is the exception that proves the rule

[Rhumbline]

An airplane is just a machine. Most machines will depreciate and lose value over time. One should buy an airplane for the utility it provides, not as an investment. Another point, the cost of an airplane is NOT in the purchase, it's in the operation. If you buy a medium priced Mooney the operating costs, all-in,  will equal the purchase price in just a few years. About 3 years in my case.

 

This is so.  A  maintained airplane, however, used to be the icon or "poster child" of durable goods.  It is now descending into the realm of the used car with exceptionally high operating costs.  Unequivocally, it is for the owner/operator to determine its worth.  The point is that fewer on the outside looking in are seeing any value.  

[BigTex]

This is a really screwed up market.  It's neither a sellers nor a buyers market.  There's tons of Mooneys on the market that have older avionics and dated interior and run-out engines that you can pick up for a song.  But if you're in the market for a nice Mooney (pick your model) that has semi-current avionics (GNS430W, GTX330ES, GPSS, Auto Pilot w/Alt Hold, Engine Monitor), updated interior, good paint, sealed tanks or bladders, good shock disc and less than a mid-time engine, good luck finding one.  There's very few on the market and the ones that are will go for top dollar.  

 

So basically, you have too options... You can use it like a car and scrape it out when your done with it.  Or you continue to sink tons of money into it to keep it current and in like know condition and will maybe recover your purchase price when you sell it.  

[carusoam]

But, at least you don't have inflation to cloud your judgement...

Best regards,

-a-

[adrian]

There's tons of Mooneys on the market that have older avionics and dated interior and run-out engines that you can pick up for a song.  But if you're in the market for a nice Mooney ... good luck finding one.  

If you want reasonably reliable IFR travel, it really helps to have the toys. So you have two real choices: buy a new, or nearly-new, airplane which comes fully equipped for today's world, or upgrade something old. I couldn't afford to buy a nice SR22, but my upgraded M20E gives me 80% of the capability for 20% of the capital cost - for 2 occupants, at least. I wouldn't get back what I've put into it if I sold it, so unless I am forced to sell or am able to buy a much more capable airplane, mine's not going to be on the market. I suspect that is the case with a lot of the nicer old Mooneys.

I am surprised that a market hasn't developed to refurbish old airplanes. It's happening at the top end of the GA market, thanks to Nextant, but never seems to have taken off at the lower end. A $25,000 E or F can be turned into a fabulous $100,000 machine which, of course, can never depreciate by more than $100,000! $150,000 could make a perfect J, and $200-250,000 would give a perfect 252, which gives away almost nothing in capability when compared to a $750,000 new Cirrus. There are a lot of people who want to fly who can afford those amounts. Indeed, there are a lot who are losing that much each year on depreciation of a new Cirrus. I guess they just don't want to fly older airplanes.

[JKJacobiSr]

I am finishing the process of an avionics upgrade in my 66 C model. Only thing I could keep was the KX155 and KI 209 glide slope head. To gain the needed panel space, I removed an old Narco MK12 and VOR head, remove the DG and installed an Ovhld Century NSD360HSI. It doesn't require a remote gyro so it saved weight and space. Added a GMA 347, GTX 327, KY197 com, and a used KLN90B.

It is a good basic IFR platform, bought everything used. Got the Approach FastStack hub and harness for everything and I'm going to be at roughly $8500 when complete ( NSD360 was almost $4000 of that). So if you have panel space and can be satisfied with IFR enroute and non-WAAS approaches you can get good functionality for cheap.