Earl Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I would add in-cockpit weather first...modest investment compared to the capability. I'm about to ditch my 496 for a GDL-39 + tablet solution, although the other ADS-B receivers look good too. That is far more important for IMC XC in my opinion than a panel-mounted GPS. Next on the list would be a 430W or equivalent. Planes don't sell well these days without one, so you might as well add it and get the use out of it before you decide to sell down the road...even if that is years in the future. You'll eventually need WAAS on board too, and as I said above it doesn't look like the price to do that will be lower in the future. I agree with this although I do think a panel mounted gps is a close second. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketAviator Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Simple answer is YES, but truly only if you fly IFR and use it for LVP approach! In my humble opinion.... I recently passed on a plane purchased because it did not have WAAS! Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 When I upgraded my 430, I removed the ceiling and left side panel, and the back seat to get the side out, because the new antenna required different coax. This was 4 months after buying the plane. Removal, of course, was easier than reinstall, and I cleaned and repainted the panels and the door panel while the box was back at Garmin. So I only have 4 months' worth of VFR flying with a 430 to compare against 3 years VFR and 3 years including IFR training since. I like it, no more worries about RAIM integrity, many good approaches into non-towered fields that I visit, and I really enjoyed accepting an ILS back-course approach in actual (the first I would have ever flown) and asking for the GPS instead. My suggestion: upgrade to WAAS. You'll like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 ...how do you tell if a 430 is a 430 or a 430W? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Someone questioned the utility of losing weight as a viable means of increasing useful load. I merely posted some examples showing the possibilities. (Those came from google images, but I can get simliar with a camera phone in the local Wally World in, like, 10 minutes. It's Alabama... you can't swing a dead cat without hitting suitable subjects.) ...back on topic... I have a 430. I think it's a 430W, but I'm not doing IFR stuff yet so I haven't looked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Back to the original posters comment of trying to get his com 2 repaired and a couple of failed attempts. I would assume he probably has a ky something from the 80's or 90's. If so a working replacement can usually be found on ebay for a few hundred $$$ and just plugged into the tray by the owner without getting a avionics shop involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Back to the original posters comment of trying to get his com 2 repaired and a couple of failed attempts. I would assume he probably has a ky something from the 80's or 90's. If so a working replacement can usually be found on ebay for a few hundred $$$ and just plugged into the tray by the owner without getting a avionics shop involved. I have a mid 80's OEM KX165 and my original plan was to upgrade to the Garmin SL30, hence my call to avionics shops. I had sent one a panel shot and he asked if my 430 was WAAS and I said no. So his advice was exactly that, pull and replace the 165 and upgrade to WAAS for not a whole lot more than the price and install of the SL30. My 430 has been a great piece of equipment and all I really needed was a functional and usable #2 so I was intrigued by his suggestion. Hence my question here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The kx 165 will cost a little more than a few hundred, but If you take your time and look around you should be able to find one for around 1K. It seems like I remember Scott may have had one for sale a while back. There are also online avionics shops that offer exchanges. They will send you a working overhauled unit and your send them your non working unit back in as an exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinerunner Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I've been reading this post avidly since I don't have GPS and am pondering the best entry into it. I've got a great bunch of radios if it were 2000 (or maybe 1990) starring the KNS80 VOR/DME RNAV and I can't afford to throw them all out (well the Loran IS a waste of space) and start from scratch. I have a friend who is willing to give me his King KLN-89B which would give me nonprecision approach (seems pretty good) for the cost of installation and an antenna but it doesn't look like it could ever do WAAS, which will be required and might even need a different antenna. Maybe the free KNL-89B would be more expensive than going straight to the most cost effective GPS-WAAS that will still be good in 2020. I've had my eye on the Garmin 400W as the best GPS WAAS bang for buck. Comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think I am being bugged by Jepps as this showed up in my email this morning: WAAS up? Nothing is more gratifying for IFR pilots than flying an approach down to minimums, breaking out of the clouds at the last second and greasing the landing. This is especially rewarding when the approach you’re flying has a 200’ DH with ½ mile visibility, and you take it right to the bottom. Traditionally minimums this low have only been available for ILS approaches at an airport that is lucky enough to be equipped with such. But what happens when you’re at a smaller field, in bad weather and there isn’t an ILS available? You may be stuck with a non-precision approach that has minimums significantly higher than a precision approach, which may limit your ability to get into the airport. This is where the beauty of WAAS-enabled RNAV approaches comes in. WAAS is the Wide Area Augmentation System and we use it with RNAV (Area Navigation, mostly GPS approaches for GA aircraft). If you’re flying a newer aircraft, or an older airplane with upgraded avionics, you may already have WAAS—and if you do it’s an amazing tool in your IFR toolbox because you get a precision-like approach using only your WAAS-enabled GPS receiver. WAAS uses error-correcting and signal integrity monitoring to provide a computer-generated glidepath (note–not a glideslope and not a BARO-VNAV glidepath) enabling a vertical track and lateral track on an instrument approach. And WAAS delivers tangible benefits. First, WAAS approaches within the continental United States have signal coverage that allows minimums down to 200’ and ½ mile visibility, the same as an ILS. This doesn’t guarantee that a particular WAAS approach at your local airport will have minimums that low, but they can be when the approach meets the appropriate terrain, obstacle and missed approach criteria. Second, a WAAS approach flies just like an ILS. Outside of learning the particulars of your avionics suite, this approach will operate from a flying perspective just like every other precision approach that you’ve flown, which lowers the learning curve. How do you know if an approach has WAAS? On a Jeppesen chart it’s easy. Looking at the procedure name, you can see that the approach is an RNAV (GPS), since it has to be RNAV for WAAS to be even an option. On the second line, below the communication frequencies, you’ll see the first box identifies the approach as WAAS. Moving along the Briefing Strip sequence, you’ll notice in the minimums box it says LPV, which stands for Localizer Performance with Vertical Guidance. These are the WAAS minimums. When you scroll down to the minimums section of the chart, note that the first set of minimums, if WAAS enabled, are LPV minimums. If the approach doesn’t have WAAS, LPV won’t be listed. Here’s one other item of consideration. If you don’t have WAAS or lose signal integrity, the WAAS LPV minimums won’t apply and you’ll need to find the appropriate minimums on the chart. Enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The installation of any GPS box is going to cost roughly the same, so if you pay to install a "free" one today (~$1500 ish) you'll get to pay it again whenever you upgrade to WAAS since none of the low-cost ones available today can be upgraded or replaced in the tray. It might even cost more to install the 2nd box if a lot of the first installation wires need to be removed as that will add to the labor. The 400W is a rare box... the same GPS guts as the 430W but with no comm side. You might find a deal on one if you scrounge, but you'll still need (or strongly desire) another comm box on board and you might run into panel space constraints. The 430W is still holding it's value because it is a good box and has become the KX-170B of this century IMO. It does a lot relative to it's size and weight and would make a very nice upgrade on any panel that still has a KNS-80 and a legacy com or nav/com box installed. Today they are $6000-$7000 on the used market, which compares very favorably to the cost of the KNS-80 in 1980 (adjusted for inflation). I doubt anyone will regret installing a 430W as it adds a lot of capability to the plane, increases the hull value, and will make it easier to sell when the time comes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I've been reading this post avidly since I don't have GPS and am pondering the best entry into it. I've got a great bunch of radios if it were 2000 (or maybe 1990) starring the KNS80 VOR/DME RNAV and I can't afford to throw them all out (well the Loran IS a waste of space) and start from scratch. I have a friend who is will to give me his King KLN-89B which would give me nonprecision approach (seems pretty good) for the cost of installation and an antenna but it doesn't look like it could ever do WAAS, which will be required and might even need a different antenna. Maybe the free KNL-89B would be more expensive than going straight to the most cost effective GPS-WAAS that will still be good in 2020. I've had my eye on the Garmin 400W as the best GPS WAAS bang for buck. Comments? I went this route last year. My main reasoning was that I needed something cheap to drive the autopilot with and didn't want to spend 10K to get it. I also have the kns 80 and local airports with an ILS. If you want the 89B to be ifr certified, it will have to have an external annunciator, CDI, be connected to your encoder, have a custom flight manual supplement and be installed on a 337. I scrounged around and found all the used parts I needed for about 1K. I did all the work myself, so to me the 1K was justified. I'll deal with 2020 when it gets here. There will be more choices in 7 years. There are no guarantees that a 430 will even be repairable in 7 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think an owner needs to be pretty careful with used avionics. The OP has one un-fixable KX165. He's thinking of putting in a different KX165, of un-known history, in his plane for $2K. That replacement unit is also 30 years old and may have gremlins of it's own. In my mind, this is a $2K gamble. It may work out, or it may not. I think the original idea of replacing the bad KX165 with an SL30 is the better plan. Yes, the SL30 is more expensive, but it's new and will likely last a long time. And it has a few features not found in the KX165. I'd hate to buy that KX165 today, find it isn't reliable, and then put in a new nav/com in a year. Now, your inexpensive fix has cost you more money. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 I think an owner needs to be pretty careful with used avionics. The OP has one un-fixable KX165. He's thinking of putting in a different KX165, of un-known history, in his plane for $2K. That replacement unit is also 30 years old and may have gremlins of it's own. In my mind, this is a $2K gamble. It may work out, or it may not. I think the original idea of replacing the bad KX165 with an SL30 is the better plan. Yes, the SL30 is more expensive, but it's new and will likely last a long time. And it has a few features not found in the KX165. I'd hate to buy that KX165 today, find it isn't reliable, and then put in a new nav/com in a year. Now, your inexpensive fix has cost you more money. Larry Larry, you read my mind and that is why my initial inclination was to replace the KX 165 with the SL30. If I had my druthers I would do both but I don't have the cash today. I guess a variant on my question would be if I put in the replacement KX 165 today along with the WAAS and then a year or two from now had to replace the KX 165 with a SL30 would I be upset? I know I am already annoyed at the money I have already spent trying to fix my current unit so I don't know. If I put in the replacement unit and it works fine for the next five years I will probably be happy. If it craps out the next year I will be kicking myself........decisions.....decisions...... If I had the cash I would move my current 430 to #2 and put in a new WAAS GPS as my number 1, add Aspen.....heck, scrap it all for G600.....oh never mind, sell the plane and buy a new TBM-850, forget the TBM, I'll just get a Citation.......planes and boats....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Larry, you read my mind and that is why my initial inclination was to replace the KX 165 with the SL30. If I had my druthers I would do both but I don't have the cash today. I guess a variant on my question would be if I put in the replacement KX 165 today along with the WAAS and then a year or two from now had to replace the KX 165 with a SL30 would I be upset? I know I am already annoyed at the money I have already spent trying to fix my current unit so I don't know. If I put in the replacement unit and it works fine for the next five years I will probably be happy. If it craps out the next year I will be kicking myself........decisions.....decisions...... If I had the cash I would move my current 430 to #2 and put in a new WAAS GPS as my number 1, add Aspen.....heck, scrap it all for G600.....oh never mind, sell the plane and buy a new TBM-850, forget the TBM, I'll just get a Citation.......planes and boats....... Earl: So, back up, what's wrong with the KX165? Do we NEED it fixed? What is your long-term plan for avionics? Can you use handheld comm or gps as your emergency backup? Seems like you've been fine without WAAS so far, so you can probably do without that. Maybe don't do anything now until you save up for the real fix? In your situation, I would do one of two things: 1: Replace the KX 165 with an SL30. Leave the 430 alone. When you have the cash, sell the 430 and buy a GTN 650 as your WAAS upgrade. 2: Replace the KX165 with another, hope for the best. Leave the 430 alone. When you have the cash, buy the GTN, keep 430 as #2, and sell the KX165 Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted October 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 The problem with the current #2 is when I key the mic it spikes the ammeter and is unreadable. Reception and VOR/GS work fine. I have had it looked at by 2 different shops and neither solved that problem. I fly the plane on business in IMC and not having a reliable #2 (even with my handheld) is not my idea of a long-term solution. I started out just wanting to replace the #2 with something new but was enticed to go the route of replacing the #2 with another working KX165 and getting the WAAS capability for the same price as a new SL30. Hence the question. As for a long-term avionics plan, I really don't have one. I am not real excited about plowing tens of thousands of dollars into new avionics in a plane that has already lost a lot of value from when I bought it at the peak of the market. For me, the plane is about utility, flexibility and safety. I am not one of those guys that spends every free moment at the airport polishing my plane and planning the next upgrade. The only plan I have relates to the ads-b requirement coming in 2020 and as of today the least expensive option is a new transponder but that also requires a WAAS GPS. So I am faced with the upgrade eventually either by purchasing a new unit and moving the 430 to #2 or paying for the upgrade. Who knows, maybe something new will come along. I am also concerned about getting service on the 430 as it ages. Upgrading allegedly means Garmin will continue to provide service on the unit. The more I think about the more I like the idea of replacing the KX 165 with another workable unit, go ahead with the upgrade and then in a year or two replace the KX165 (to be sold) with an SL30 and then eventually replace the transponder to meet the ads-b requirement unless something better comes along. In my opinion, adding another GPS won't improve the value of the plane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mooniac15u Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Are you sure it's the KX 165 that's broken and not your audio panel or something else in the wiring? Do you know someone else with a KX 165 that you could swap in and test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryb Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 If that TX failure is consistent and fails on the bench, it should be pretty easy for a shop to trouble-shoot. Did the previous attempts fix it and it came back, or did they simply fail to fix? From what you said, the likely suspect is the final power amp. However, it is possible to have a coax or antenna problem that would cause tx problems and not be apparent on rx. You could also have a problem with the DC power in the plane having a high-resistance and causing a voltage drop on transmit. How much of a spike on the ammeter do you see? If you TX on the ground with engine off, what's the ammeter reading? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted October 23, 2013 Report Share Posted October 23, 2013 Sell the GNS430, trade in the KX165 for $1500 on a new KNS770 and replace your audio panel with the PAR200 which has a COM radio built in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Tom, Now I have to go look up what a par200 is... Best regards, -a- http://www.chiefaircraft.com/ps-par200.html Interesting all in one box....with BT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghovey Posted October 24, 2013 Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Be thankful you don't own the G1000 with STEC autopilot. Cost to upgrade to WAAS ? $35,000 pretty absurd for something that was "state of the art" only 6 years ago. If you think your 530 or 430 will be supported 7 or 8 years from now you are kidding yourselves. Oh well. It gives us all something to do with all of our extra money- we all are rich right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted October 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2013 Are you sure it's the KX 165 that's broken and not your audio panel or something else in the wiring? Do you know someone else with a KX 165 that you could swap in and test? That is step one when I get to the avionics shop. He has one that we can plug in. If that works then at least I know its not a wiring or audio panel issue. In one of the failed repair attempts I had the wiring checked and they replaced the antenna. That fixed the reception problem but not the spiking and poor transmit. If its in audio panel then I am even better off because that I can replace cheaper and still do the WAAS upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 Depends on the airports you fly to and the approaches. Part of my upgrade to the Missile was that too many airports I was flying to the F needed a GPS approach. I figured I'd want WAAS as my home airport had a 400 foot lower cieling with thte WAAS approach as opposed to the VOR approach that was sometimes out of service. I don't have an ADF anymore and can't perform NDB approaches (only did two in real conditions) but I don't need to with the GPS and WAAS approaches. If I already had a 430, I'd make the upgrade - besides, as stated earlier, as part of the upgrade, they replace all sorts of parts in the 430 and make it nearly as good as new. Good luck with your decision! -Seth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N601RX Posted October 25, 2013 Report Share Posted October 25, 2013 To rule out the antenna/coax just swap the com coax from the 430 to the 155. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Posted October 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2013 To rule out the antenna/coax just swap the com coax from the 430 to the 155. Already had the antenna fixed. Solved my reception problem but not the transmit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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