ADS-B weather

[DonMuncy]

I have Sirius weather on a Garmin 696. I really like it, but I don't like the monthly fees. It appears that using a Stratus unit and ADS-B weather is the most likely alternative. The 3 considerations I see are the initial $ outlay, the coverage area and the quality of weather info available.

At $900, it would pay out in less than 2 years.

Looking at the available coverage maps, it seems by mid 2014, there will be plenty of coverage for me (Texas, some trips to CA and CO)

How many of you have actually flown with both Sirius and ADS-B. What do you like and dislike about the two. And what is your thoughts about the currency of the two.

[gjkirsch]

I have had both and currently just use ADS-B with foreflight and stratus.  I liked the display better with XM and information on Tops.  If I flew a lot more than I do (about 100 hours a year) I would stay with XM.  The data refresh rates on weather are virtually identical as is the way the data is compiled.  Some will argue that you get XM on the ground and won't get ADS-B until you are up in the air but I have access on the ground with an Iphone.  So there is only a few minutes where I don't have weather and I won't cut my flying that close anyhow.  

 

The only other very minor negative to me is keeping all the stuff charged.  I now keep a back up battery pack that will charge both the ipad and stratus.  I have not had a lot of luck running off of ships power.  I have tried a number adapters and a transformer.  The adapters got hotter than I would have liked and I got static in the radio with the transformer.  I could probably figure it out eventually, but the systems last long enough on battery and the battery backup works well enough.

 

Both systems have been bullet proof for me.  I probably got one of the first stratus units released and have not had any issues with it, the Ipad (I did downsize to the mini when it came out) or foreflight.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Your also going to loose the music if you ditch the xm. Not a major consideration seeing as how you could pipe music from your portable device.

[RocketAviator]

I have both the XM & ADS-B, fly mostly in Texas, CO.  While the ADS-B weather has a few limitations when this last XM subscription runs out I do not plan to renew it.  I file and fly IFR on every flight I fly outside the pattern and local training area.  I fly in a fair amount of IMC regularly for as little IMC as we get in this part of the country, I find the refresh rate a non issue and truly can't tell the difference.  Have used XM weather to pick my way safely through more inclement weather than would have ever been possible without it.  I say and mean it, I wont fly without weather on board for on any length of flight where there is even a chance of inclement weather issues.  I for one will be going single ADS-B weather as soon as this current subscription ends on my Garmin 696.  I have the GTN 750 & 650 but will add the Clarity SV with ADS-B with my IPad when I make the change for a "other than panel backup".  I have had to fly with and solely depend on the 696 in solid IMC when my pitot tube iced up and circuit breaker would not reset once in my other plane.  Like a broken record I don't fly without a panel backup... it was cheap and it worked when I needed it.  I even practice an occasional approach with a safety pilot using solely the 696 or in some cases my tablet with Voyager by Seattle Avionics, while I don't have the windows based tablet mounted in the Mooney like I did in the Saratoga I still carry it with me ready to go at all times!  I guess I am a gadget geek but I credit them for saving my life and 2 of my passengers life on that one occasion!

 

Ok i'll get off my soap box!

[midlifeflyer]

I flew with Sirius/XM weather plugged into a 396 and now, ADS-B on my iPad.

 

There are a few differences in what they include. For example, lightning strikes on Sirius/XM; not on ADS-B and you can get Sirius/XM on the ground as well as in the air; ground only sometimes with ADS-B. There's a pretty good comparison of the two on this ForeFlight page. I have not seen the few differences to be worth the Sirius/XM subscription costs.

 

The currency of information is substantially identical - 8 to 20 minutes old for NEXRAD. One difference between the two that should be paid attention to (true for all weather sources) is that the presentation of NEXRAD data can be different. Different providers use different dBZ sales. Although the blue-green-yellow-red  increase in returns is pretty standard, the threshold that moves, say, from green to yellow, can be different on different displays.

[201er]

I'm not from Texas, but I recently spent a lot of time flying around there, west, and east and I did not find any areas that were not covered by ADS-B. Heck I've flown over Canada while continuing to pickup ADS-B stations from the US. The coverage is good, the information is essential. Even if you run into a dead spot for a few miles, you still have the last downloaded weather. When it comes to everything but radar, that's good enough as it only updates once an hour anyway. As for the radar, you can't rely on it to pass through a 5 mile gap between thunderstorms but it is helpful for planning a diversion around them all together or to pass through a 100 mile gap. Cause even if it's delayed or a bit off, that's plenty enough.

[Piloto]

I have XM|WX on my Aera 560 and very happy with it. I found these tablets applications to be impractical for me. Too cluttered and on track mode the text is upsidedown when flying south. Also the tablet and my belly are incompatible, my belly always wins. I switched from the weekly McDonalds 1/4 pounder combo to the XM subscription and lost 10 pounds. In an era of satellite technology it makes no sense having 700 ADS-B ground stations for weather disemination. After all, LORAN ground based system was superseded by satellite based GPS system. No surprise if the same happens with ADS-B WX. Specially in difficult economic times. It is much cheaper leasing a satellite channel than maintaining 700 ground stations. Why do you think Sirius went satellite instead of 700 ground stations for a market of millions of subscribers vs thousands for ADS-B. 

 

José 

[FlyDave]

Don,

 

You can also get the Garmin GDL-39 (https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/in-the-air/avionics-safety/weather-solutions/gdl-39/prod93601.html) and connect it to your 696. You may want to dig deeper into the differences between what XM and the GDL-39 provide but it is certainly an alternative. It's also $700 without a battery and $800 with.

 

Dave

[FlyDave]

Don,

 

One thing I don't like about weather on the iPad is if I get a re-route in flight, after entering the change into the 430, I have to enter it into the iPad. If I'm busy, this can take a while.

In my next plane I'll have either a 695/696 or 795/796 and put weather on that from the GDL-39 (with flight plans output from the 430 to the 696). You can run weather from the GDL-39 to a 696 and the Garmin Pilot app on the iPad at the same time. But the GDL-39 only supports the Garmin Pilot app - not ForeFlight or WingX.

 

DAve

[Earl]

I currently use XM on my 696 and think it is worth every penny I spend on a monthly basis.  I have looked at all the various ADS-B alternatives, read everything I can and just don't think it is a viable alternative for me right now.  As the system gets built out it may make more sense but right now I view the $65 I spend each month on XM to be well worth it.  So I am not going to switch as of right now and will wait and see what transpires with the technology.

[midlifeflyer]

Don,

 

One thing I don't like about weather on the iPad is if I get a re-route in flight, after entering the change into the 430, I have to enter it into the iPad. If I'm busy, this can take a while.

 

I usually have the few seconds available to put a re-route into my iPad. You'd have to go pretty far to be in the wrong weather display. 

 

At times, I've even entered it, or at least the first new waypoint I need to go to, into my iPad before entering it into my IFR box. Tells me what direction to start out from my present position much faster. 

[fantom]

Here's an interesting learning story for all us 3 or 4 GPS + iPad with FF & ADS-B traffic, + an AOA indicator, + lots of LED lights, a 406 ELT, a 2 or three panel Aspen set up or a G-500, a new Garmin 750/650 and a can't live without GPSS, a $5,000 seatbelt, a $10,000 engine analyzer, two electric backup AI's....and little, if any, solid, professional, onging re-currency training.

Don't know if it's a totally true story, but lots of fine lessons, and it's a universal truth that in any field of endeavor, luck favors the prepared mind.

Dedicated to Frank Crismon (1903-1990)

by Capt. G. C. Kehmeier (United Airlines, Ret.)

“I ought to make you buy a ticket to ride this airline!" The chief pilot's words were scalding. I had just transferred from San Francisco to Denver. Frank Crismon, my new boss, was giving me a route check between Denver and Salt Lake City.

"Any man who flies for me will know this route," he continued. "'Fourteen thousand feet will clear Kings Peak' is not adequate. You had better know that Kings Peak is exactly 13,498 feet high. Bitter Creek is not 'about 7,000 feet.' It is exactly 7,185 feet, and the identifying code for the beacon is dash dot dash.

"I'm putting you on probation for one month, and then I'll ride with you again. If you want to work for me, you had better start studying!"

Wow! He wasn't kidding! For a month, I pored over sectional charts, auto road maps, Jeppesen approach charts, and topographic quadrangle maps. I learned the elevation and code for every airway beacon between the West Coast and Chicago. I learned the frequencies, runway lengths, and approach procedures for every airport. From city road maps, I plotted the streets that would funnel me to the various runways at each city.

A month later he was on my trip.

"What is the length of the north-south runway at Milford?" "Fifty-one fifty."

"How high is Antelope Island?" "Sixty-seven hundred feet."

"If your radio fails on an Ogden-Salt Lake approach, what should you do?" "Make a right turn to 290 degrees and climb to 13,000 feet."

"What is the elevation of the Upper Red Butte beacon?" "Seventy-three hundred."

"How high is the Laramie Field?" "Seventy-two fifty."

This lasted for the three hours from Denver to Salt Lake City.

"I'm going to turn you loose on your own. Remember what you have learned. I don't want to ever have to scrape you off some hillside with a book on your lap!"

Twenty years later, I was the Captain on a Boeing 720 from San Francisco to Chicago. We were cruising in the cold, clear air at 37,000 feet.

South of Grand Junction a deep low-pressure area fed moist air upslope into Denver, causing snow, low ceilings, and restricted visibility. The forecast for Chicago's O'Hare Field was 200 feet and one-half mile, barely minimums.

Over the Utah-Colorado border, the backbone of the continent showed white in the noonday sun. I switched on the intercom and gave the passengers the word.

"We are over Grand Junction at the confluence of the Gunnison and Colorado Rivers. On our right and a little ahead is the Switzerland of America--the rugged San Juan Mountains. In 14 minutes we will cross the Continental Divide west of Denver. We will arrive O'Hare at 3:30 Chicago time."

Over Glenwood Springs, the generator overheat light came on.

"Number 2 won't stay on the bus," the engineer advised.

He placed the essential power selector to number 3. The power failure light went out for a couple of seconds and then came on again, glowing ominously.

"Smoke is coming out of the main power shield," the engineer yelled.

"Hand me the goggles."

The engineer reached behind the observer's seat, unzipped a small container, and handed the copilot and me each a pair of ski goggles. The smoke was getting thick.

I slipped the oxygen mask that is stored above the left side of the pilot's seat over my nose and mouth. By pressing a button on the control wheel, I could talk to the copilot and the engineer through the battery-powered intercom. By flipping a switch, either of us could talk to the passengers.

"Emergency descent!" I closed the thrust levers. The engines that had been purring quietly like a giant vacuum cleaner since San Francisco spooled down to a quiet rumble. I established a turn to the left and pulled the speed brake lever to extend the flight spoilers.

"Gear down. Advise passengers to fasten seat belts and no smoking."

I held the nose forward, and the mountains along the Continental Divide came up rapidly. The smoke was thinning.

"Bring cabin altitude to 14,000 feet," I ordered.

At 14,000 feet over Fraser, we leveled and retracted the gear and speed brakes. The engineer opened the ram air switch and the smoke disappeared. We removed our goggles and masks.

Fuel is vital to the life of a big jet, and electricity is almost as vital. The artificial horizon and other electronic instruments, with which I navigated and made approaches through the clouds, were now so much tin and brass. All I had left was the altimeter, the airspeed, and the magnetic compass--simple instruments that guided airplanes 35 years earlier.

"Advise passengers we are making a Denver stop."

"The last Denver weather was 300 feet with visibility one-half mile in heavy snow. Wind was northeast at 15 knots with gusts to 20," the copilot volunteered.

"I know. I heard it."

The clouds merged against the mountains above Golden. Boulder was in the clear. To the northeast, the stratus clouds were thick like the wool on the back of a Rambouillet buck before shearing.

I dropped the nose and we moved over the red sandstone buildings of the University of Colorado. We headed southeast and picked up the Denver-Boulder turnpike.

"We will fly the turnpike to the Broomfield turnoff, then east on Broomfield Road to Colorado Boulevard, then south to 26th Avenue, then east to Runway 8."

The copilot, a San Francisco reserve, gave me a doubtful look. One doesn't scud-run to the end of the runway under a 300-foot ceiling in a big jet.

Coming south on Colorado Boulevard, we were down to 100 feet above the highway. Lose it and I would have to pull up into the clouds and fly the gauges when I had no gauges. Hang onto it and I would get into Stapleton Field. I picked up the golf course and started a turn to the left.

"Gear down and 30 degrees."

The copilot moved a lever with a little wheel on it. He placed the flap lever in the 30-degree slot.

I shoved the thrust levers forward.

"Don't let me get less than 150 knots. I'm outside."

I counted the avenues as they slid underneath. . .30th, 29th, and 28th. I remembered that there was neither a 31st nor a 27th. I picked up 26th. The snow was slanting out of the northeast. The poplar trees and power lines showed starkly through the storm. With electrical power gone, we had no windshield heat. Fortunately, the snow was not sticking.

"Let me know when you see a school on your side and hack my time at five-second intervals from the east side of the school yard."

Ten seconds.

"There it is. The yard is full of kids. Starting time now!"

Good boy. Smiley faced Holly. From the east side of the school yard, I counted Kearney, then Krameria, Leydon, Locust. Remember the double lane for Monaco Parkway. Then Magnolia, Niagara, Newport. Time the speed at 130 knots. Only eight blocks to the end of the runway. Oneida, Olive, Pontiac, Poplar. From Quebec to Syracuse, the cross streets disappear; figure eight seconds. Keep 26th Avenue under the right side of the nose.

"Full flaps."

Dead ahead, glowing dimly in the swirling snow, were the three green lights marking the east end of Runway 8.

We crossed 20 feet above the center green light and touched down in a crab to the left. I aligned the nose to the runway with the right rudder, dropped the nose wheel, popped the speed brakes, and brought in reverse thrust.

It took us 10 minutes to find the terminal in the swirling whiteout. We saw the dim, flashing red light atop the building indicating the field was closed to all traffic.

A mechanic materialized out of the snow carrying two wands. He waved me into the gate.

I set the parking brake.

"We have ground power," the engineer advised.

"Cut the engines."

The bagpipe skirl of sound spiraled down to silence.

"My hat is off to you, skipper. I don't know how you ever found this airport."

"I used to fly for an ornery old chief pilot who made me learn the route," I replied as I hung up my headset and scratched the top of my head where it itched.

Frank Crismon passed away at his home in Denver on 25 Jan 1990.

Editor's note: Professionalism, readiness, and knowledge can never be replaced by all the electronic gadgets in the world. Whether you drive a truck or an F-35, nothing beats knowing your capabilities and those of your machine, and knowing where you are at all times. It's hard to come up with options if you don't know what's going on.

[DonMuncy]

Dave,

I haven't read much yet, but someone mentioned the Garmin GDL39 won't work on Foreflight. To your knowledge, does the GDL39 hook by cable to the 696 and automatically show the weather on the map on the 696. If so, that would make it almost the same as XM(with the limitations posted)That would make it pretty much "pay me now or pay me later.)

Don

[Jeff_S]

I have a GDL-69a tied to my MX-20, and I have a Stratus tied to ForeFlight on my iPad. Most would say "overkill" but I like the redundancy. I have on occasion had the XM/WX receiver stop working in flight, or in some cases there are delayed updates of METARs or NEXRAD on one system that are showing up correctly on the other system.  And there are still parts of the country where ADS-B hasn't penetrated yet, like on my flights to Kansas City through southern Missouri (although that's getting better). So I look at the two systems as I do any other backup feature in my plane's ecosystem.  Yes, it costs more to keep it all updated, but I'm a technie gadget guy at heart so that doesn't bother me too much.

[midlifeflyer]

Dave,

I haven't read much yet, but someone mentioned the Garmin GDL39 won't work on Foreflight.

 

 

 Garmin-Garmin and Foreflight-Stratus are exclusive ADS-B relationships. 

 

 

 

To your knowledge, does the GDL39 hook by cable to the 696 and automatically show the weather on the map on the 696

 

That's exactly the way it works.

 

[FlyDave]

Dave,

I haven't read much yet, but someone mentioned the Garmin GDL39 won't work on Foreflight. To your knowledge, does the GDL39 hook by cable to the 696 and automatically show the weather on the map on the 696. If so, that would make it almost the same as XM(with the limitations posted)That would make it pretty much "pay me now or pay me later.)

Don

 

Don,

 

The only iPad app the Garmin GDL-39 works with is the Garmin Pilot app.

Yes - it's a cable between the GDL-39 and the 696 and it displays weather and traffic on the 696. I'd call Garmin and ask them if there are differences between what the GDL-39 shows on the iPad in Garmin Pilot and what it shows on 696.

One thing I believe it does not show is "echo tops".

 

Dave

[wishboneash]

Don,

 

One thing I don't like about weather on the iPad is if I get a re-route in flight, after entering the change into the 430, I have to enter it into the iPad. If I'm busy, this can take a while.

In my next plane I'll have either a 695/696 or 795/796 and put weather on that from the GDL-39 (with flight plans output from the 430 to the 696). You can run weather from the GDL-39 to a 696 and the Garmin Pilot app on the iPad at the same time. But the GDL-39 only supports the Garmin Pilot app - not ForeFlight or WingX.

 

DAve

 

This is exactly what I have. My 696 takes in puts from the GTN650 (x-fill the flight plan), GDL-39 (Wx/traffic) and the Zaon XRX (traffic). I don't use the Zaon interface much these days and leave it on its own display. It requires some switching and going through a few set up menus changes but for a longer flight it works well. Once the GDL-88 is in, the ADS-B solution will be complete.

[Gforce]

I use the 796 and have off and on tried ADSB on the iPad.  I keep going back to the 796.  The Wx on it has always been reliable plus it has many more features (even a semi-synthetic vision) and I do like to listen to the XM on long flights.  I also like that it pulls power from the plane and has an extended battery so is a good back-up if there was an issue.  I also use Foreflight on an iPad and have a mini-iPad velcroed over my MX20 (has lines in it so I use it as a back-up).  I do like to run the Xavion app on the mini which gives me an additional sense of security in the case of engine out.  The big drawback for me with the iPads have been battery life and any chargers I  have used in the plane created static on the radio (sometimes severe).  I have thought about the stratus too because I run Foreflight and like the additional backup for the AI.  My two cents.

[fantom]

You're most welcome, Jim.....it is a fun read, is't it.

 

And a warm welcome to MooneySpace, Gforce. Given all that computing power, I'm surprised you didn't find us faster.