Avionics of the Future?

[Wildhorsesracing]

I wonder how long it'll be before we start seeing this in our Mooneys?  Twin iPads for all avionics...

 

 

 

 

[NotarPilot]

Looks a bit cheesy but I like it.

[Bill_Carter]

I made a joke about this same thing on another thread. It really isn't all that far fetched and it is certainly cheaper.

[scottfromiowa]

I love cheese...

[FloridaMan]

Not just no, but NO FUCKING WAY. Great for added situational awareness. I'd be ok with an iPod touch being the display for engine data, but as I've said numerous times, and I will say this again, in all caps. DO NOT TRUST YOUR IPAD TO DELIVER INFORMATION THAT YOUR LIFE DEPENDS ON. YOUR TABLET WILL CONFIDENTLY REPORT INCORRECT DATA TO YOU IN A MANNER THAT IS FULLY CONVINCING.

 

Ever meet somebody who is absolutely brilliant and gives you a great and correct answer 99% of the time, but the 1% of the time when they're wrong, they're really fucking wrong -- but you can't tell because you don't know yourself, and they deliver their facts to you with the same level of confidence as they do when they're absolutely correct? Your iPad is like that, and you just might not have caught it when it was lying to you. 

[clh]

Antares.  Glad to see you have an opinion on this.....

 

My $0.02.  You are using an app on a general use computer that is interpreting data via bluetooth.  What can go wrong?

 

The FAA is pretty set on requiring purpose designed and built equipment bolted into the airframe communicating via hardwires....  I don't see them approving this anytime in my lifetime, my childrens, or grandchildrens, ........

 

It is sad though that we can run all kinds of new and "affordable" technology in the experimentals, but us certified folks are  condemned to using archaic equipment at outrageous prices.    

 

It is neat to see, but it will be unlikely to see it in a Mooney.

[wishboneash]

I wouldn't trust this set up for IFR. OK for VFR.

[carusoam]

If you have ever experienced the overheat and shutdown that occurs with the ipad1...

Definitely not IFR ready for primary instrumentation, yet...

Nice to see people working on the software though.

Best regards,

-a-

[eaglebkh]

Could you imagine if Steve Jobs had designed avionics?  We'd be anxiously following all the hype and trendy iOS updates, dealing with changing interfaces depending on what Steve was trying to copy that year (Google Maps, IBM, etc), and having to settle for non-compatibility with devices he didn't like.

 

God rest his soul...

[rdav]

There is a reason that avionics software is developed to RTCA DO-178 design assurance standards. I could see this as a supplemental display, but would want a certified backup SOMEWHERE on my panel!

[rdav]

.. Oh .. And an AOA indicator too

[Cruiser]

I have not read RTCA DO-178 but the real problem for aviation is why the iPad & apps cost about $500 and a Garmin G500 is closer to $30,000

[rdav]

You're comparing apples and oranges.

When my son first got his drivers license, he borrowed my wife's car, a Kia Sephia, and thought it would be a good idea to join his buddies in their off road driving adventure. When he got it back and it spilled a puddle of oil on our driveway, I had to .. very calmly .. explain to him that the reason that the car now has a bent frame, cracked oil pan and damage on the sidewalls of the tires was because it was designed to be a passenger road car, not an offload vehicle. Oh sure, it drove the course, but it was the wrong tool for the job.

Same thing with the iPad as a primary flight instrument. The G500 was designed using very rigorous software design and verification practices to provide a level of assurance that it will work reliably when needed. The iPad is an amazing device, and works great for playing games or doing simple office work, but it can and does do some strange things. It kicks me out from applications every blue moon, and sometimes it doesnt respond immediately when i push the application button. If a bug happens during a game, no big deal. I wouldn't want it for any life-critical applications though.

Don't get me wrong .. I use my iPad in the cockpit for supplemental information all the time, but I always count on a more reliable primary source so all my eggs aren't in one basket.

[Wildhorsesracing]

Having sold my software company and retired years ago (2007) I can vouch that ALL software has it's bugs.  Even the most tested Gn000 has bugs in it. I think the best thing to come from all of the tablet software is COMPETITION - because it not only improves the breed but lowers the cost of involvement. 

 

True Story:

I started a software company in 1996 to fill a niche for medium sized manufacturing companies.  We developed and introduced a completely new product in 2001 at a new low introductory price.  Every sales call drew great feedback and all prospective clients loved it but felt that the price was too low to be any good.  We raised the price 500% and suddenly everybody considered us more seriously - same software - same features - 500% more!  We suddenly had sales that overwhelmed our staff.

 

So, keep believing that a $500 piece of software isn't as good as a $30,000 piece of software - it's just that type of thinking that allowed me to retire at such a young age... 

[Jerry 5TJ]

I bet my iPad running ForeFlight is at least as reliable as my airplane's single vacuum pump. 

[jetdriven]

I disagree.  Your ipad wont run 600-900 hours before a single fault (MTBF), and the iPad doesnt have a standalone backup, such as your electric turn coordinator.

[Marauder]

I disagree. Your ipad wont run 600-900 hours before a single fault (MTBF), and the iPad doesnt have a standalone backup, such as your electric turn coordinator.

Hmmm.... Most mechanical hard drives have an MTBF in excess of 300,000 hours. Solid state products like iPads, iPhones, Nexus 7s, even with retina have baby sized AFR. I'll take an iPad over my rotary vane vacuum pump any day. Heck, for the price of a Nexus 7s, I'd get 3 of them and it still would be cheaper than my Sigma Tek VP.

[jetdriven]

Where's the data?  Are you saying that an iPad is more reliable than a vacuum system driven attitude indicator?  An ipad or iPhone is great for charts, but I have only had one attitude indicator failure and 3 vacuum pump failures in 2500 hours of piston flying, but I have had to reboot my iPad and update the software becauase of a fatal error a half dozen times in 200 hours. Sure the solid state drive has an MTBF of 30K hours, but how about the MTBF of the attitude software as installed and configured?

 

  it does the map and approach plate thing well, but it often freezes or messes up. What do you do when the attitude presentation freezes? Certified avionics monitor their performance and notify you or red-x when they have errors.  I dont see an iPad doing that.

FWIW I dont totally trust the vacuum system either. Thats why I installed a second electric attitude indicator. Relying on an iPad to perform that function is a step backwards.

[Marauder]

Where's the data? Are you saying that an iPad is more reliable than a vacuum system driven attitude indicator?

That's exactly what I am saying. They are not even in the same league with each other. If you applied power to both and leave them running, the iPad will outrun ANY mechanical pump/AI combination. We are talking hardware to hardware.

An ipad or iPhone is great for charts, but I have only had one attitude indicator failure and 3 vacuum pump failures in 2500 hours of piston flying, but I have had to reboot my iPad and update the software becauase of a fatal error a half dozen times in 200 hours.

Now you are talking apple and oranges. You are mixing software in with hardware. All I said was that the AFR for iPads is a small number. You are blaming the hardware for the software.

Sure the solid state drive has an MTBF of 30K hours, but how about the MTBF of the attitude software as installed and configured?

This is where I do agree with you! Whether user caused, hardware/software incompatibility or just plain poorly written software (or app), this takes that wonderful MTBF of 30k to it's knees. And where the hardware manufacturers often get whacked in the process. Don't get me wrong, hardware can be a problem, but often it is the stuff put on it that causes the issue.

it does the map and approach plate thing well, but it often freezes or messes up. What do you do when the attitude presentation freezes? Certified avionics monitor their performance and notify you or red-x when they have errors. I dont see an iPad doing that.

It is a matter of someone taking on the certification process because they feel they can make money at it. There are already hardware fault diagnostics built into this hardware -- leave your iPhone on a car hood on a sunny day and you will see an error message. The apps would need the same level of error checking as certified avionics. Add in the legal coverage and you would be looking at a $4k iPad/app combination.

FWIW I dont totally trust the vacuum system either. Thats why I installed a second electric attitude indicator. Relying on an iPad to perform that function is a step backwards.

I don't rely on any single source either. But if I would take my iPad running an AHRS app with an AI over my TC any day.

Respectfully,

A person in the electronics industry...

 

[chrisk]

Could you imagine if Steve Jobs had designed avionics?  We'd be anxiously following all the hype and trendy iOS updates, dealing with changing interfaces depending on what Steve was trying to copy that year (Google Maps, IBM, etc), and having to settle for non-compatibility with devices he didn't like.

 

God rest his soul...

No thanks!  This is the company that fudged the signal strength on the iPhone and built phones that would lose a connection if held a certain way.   I'll take a Garmin handheld any day over an ipad. 

[RocketAviator]

Having sold my software company and retired years ago (2007) I can vouch that ALL software has it's bugs.  Even the most tested Gn000 has bugs in it. I think the best thing to come from all of the tablet software is COMPETITION - because it not only improves the breed but lowers the cost of involvement. 

 

True Story:

I started a software company in 1996 to fill a niche for medium sized manufacturing companies.  We developed and introduced a completely new product in 2001 at a new low introductory price.  Every sales call drew great feedback and all prospective clients loved it but felt that the price was too low to be any good.  We raised the price 500% and suddenly everybody considered us more seriously - same software - same features - 500% more!  We suddenly had sales that overwhelmed our staff.

 

So, keep believing that a $500 piece of software isn't as good as a $30,000 piece of software - it's just that type of thinking that allowed me to retire at such a young age... 

As a semi-retired systems integrator and small time software developer I can say with experience that what Wildhorseracing says is absolutely true... If man has a hand in it is has errors.... especially if it is called SOFTWARE...  I have the G500, GTN 750 & 650 and yes I have an IPAD & Tablet in my 2 planes as well.... and I USE them!  I would never depend on the IPAD & Tablet as a primary but i HAVE depended on them both just this year when during a flight we lost our primary instruments in IMC... it was an uneventful recovery and continuation of the flight to a safe location, so I am a BIG fan of redundant backup! 

[rdav]

[DaV8or]

I think the solution in the future could well be to use general consumer hardware like the iPad in the permanent mount cockpit of the future, but install FAA certified software on it and have the device modified so it can't accept any other consumer software. Sort of a hybrid approach. Reaping the benefits of low cost, high volume hardware, but increased reliability using dedicated, certified software.

[OR75]

The law of physics will not change: the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. We already have that today with GPS and the future will only bring cosmetic / interface changes.

Avionics is ahead of the game , and I am hoping for changes or progress in propulsion instead.

[DaV8or]

The law of physics will not change: the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line. We already have that today with GPS and the future will only bring cosmetic / interface changes.

Avionics is ahead of the game , and I am hoping for changes or progress in propulsion instead.

 

To save middle class GA, we desperately need advancements in both avionics and power plants. Avionics are no where near as good as they could be and power plants... well.. they have a lot of catching up to do.