Mooney Production/Closing/Future Plans

[Fabian_Garavito]

Hello everyone, my name is Fabian Garavito. I am a Grad student at Baylor University, Waco TX. I am doing a project for a class and I along with my team have to find out why Mooney stopped production? Is anyone here a shareholder? are they currently public or private? What are they doing now? What were the reasons to stop business a couple years ago? I would greatly appreciate all the help and insight anyone here can give me. 

[Bob_Belville]

www.mooneypilots.com/

[DonMuncy]

Fabian,

Mooney did not stop business. They stopped production of new airplanes. They still manufacture parts and provide customer support, and could start aircraft production again if they deemed it economically prudent.

To my knowledge, it is a privately owned business.

As to why they stopped production of new planes; this is a very complex question. Mooneys are essentially a hand-built airplane, and thus more expensive to produce than mass produced articles. The higher price makes the planes desireable to a niche market, which is probably more sensitive to economic ups and downs than ordinary.

There have been suggestions that the management of the company was too heavily tilted toward upper management than it should have been.

There have been suggestions that the corporate debt was excessive or mismanaged.

Since the company is private, these suggestions are not susceptable to outside verification.

Because of the high degree of governmental regulation on aircraft production, costs are quite high.

Because of the relatively high liability in the event of an airplane crash, insurance costs are high.

All of this is my opinion only and I claim no inside knowledge or expertise.

[Cruiser]

This is interesting. Did your instructor assign this project specific to Mooney Aviation Company, Inc. or did your member pick the company?

If the instructor assigned it, is he/she a pilot?

What class are you taking that involves this kind of work?

 

I will offer some information, as always, anything you hear on the internet must be verified for completeness and accuracy but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once.

I suspect your instructor intended you do your own research instead of asking others for the answers.

1. Why Mooney stopped production? maybe they didn't have any buyers for the planes they were building?

2. Is anyone here a shareholder? You should find out if Mooney was a public or private company.

3. Are they currently public or private? All public companies are required by the SEC to issue annual reports.

4. What are they doing now? They continue to maintain their business and are operating on a limited basis to support the needs of the existing fleet.

5. What were the reasons to stop business a couple years ago? The answer to this is known only to the owners of the company. I did hear that the day Barak H. Obama was elected was the last day of production in the plant. That might give you a place to start looking for a business answer. 

[Becca]

I hope you realize as a graduate student that rumors shared on a pilot forum should not be used as a primary source for a research project (unless the project is something on consumer perception of the brand), or even a really valid secondary source (consider something with more editorial control and authority, such as a trade publication or something).  You should probably look for more official sources of this information to reference to get a good grade, but we are happy to point you in the right direction. 

[aviatoreb]

I hope you realize as a graduate student that rumors shared on a pilot forum should not be used as a primary source for a research project (unless the project is something on consumer perception of the brand), or even a really valid secondary source (consider something with more editorial control and authority, such as a trade publication or something).  You should probably look for more official sources of this information to reference to get a good grade, but we are happy to point you in the right direction. 

 

Fair enough and quite true Becca.  Still I commend the kid for going straight to interviews for good leads, like a good reporter, as long as it is as you said, that primary sources are also being sought.

[Rwsavory]

Why not pick up the phone, give them a call and try to set up an interview.

 

Here you go:

 

Headquarters

Mooney Aviation Company
165 Al Mooney Road North
Kerrville, TX 78028 

Contact by Telephone

Main: 830.896.6000
 

[fantom]

I hope you realize as a graduate student that rumors shared on a pilot forum should not be used as a primary source for a research project (unless the project is something on consumer perception of the brand), or even a really valid secondary source (consider something with more editorial control and authority, such as a trade publication or something).  You should probably look for more official sources of this information to reference to get a good grade, but we are happy to point you in the right direction. 

 

What Becca is saying is that many of us are full of hot air....at best.

 

Not me, of course, but I'd be suspicious of many others around here.

 

Better do some in-depth research, and let us know what you discover. Good luck.

[Fabian_Garavito]

DonMuncy: Thank you, you gave me a very helpful answer

Cruiser: Yes, we were assigned Mooney. It is for a strategic management class. Also, I am not asking anyone for answers. I am trying to get insight from other points of view of people that are ALOT more familiar with aviation and the company than I may be.

Becca: I realize this is not a primary source, thank you. We are also looking at more official documents, I just decided to branch out and ask others as we need as much information as we can get for this project. 

Rwsavory: Thank you!! we actually spoke to the CFO two days ago. My team member said he was a friendly guy but a little to busy for as long a conversation as we needed. 

 

Thanks ya'll for the responses, they really helped and this will be  good insight for our project. The project is not very structured so all the info we can get the better. 

[Becca]

DonMuncy: Thank you, you gave me a very helpful answer

Cruiser: Yes, we were assigned Mooney. It is for a strategic management class. Also, I am not asking anyone for answers. I am trying to get insight from other points of view of people that are ALOT more familiar with aviation and the company than I may be.

Becca: I realize this is not a primary source, thank you. We are also looking at more official documents, I just decided to branch out and ask others as we need as much information as we can get for this project. 

Rwsavory: Thank you!! we actually spoke to the CFO two days ago. My team member said he was a friendly guy but a little to busy for as long a conversation as we needed. 

 

Thanks ya'll for the responses, they really helped and this will be  good insight for our project. The project is not very structured so all the info we can get the better. 

 

Well, as long as you are using us as a rumor mill.  My two cents on the Mooney business situation is it has nothing to do with Obama or the general economy or anything, it has to do with product and price point on new airplanes.  Consider what I would consider the two "in class" competitors - Bonanza and Cirrus, both priced around what a new Mooney is priced at, around $600k.  Beech has the added advantage that they have a very diverse product line and they can spread fixed cost over multiple types of airplanes - Mooney just has Mooney.  Cirrus has the advantage that they make not pilot passengers happy with their parachutes.  Also Bo's and Cirrus's are simply more comfortable and better appointed than Mooneys are -- and when you have people with the money to spend $600k on an airplane, they aren't looking to save a few gallons of fuel and go for efficiency (something Mooneys excel at), they can afford to burn more gas and get to their destination in higher style and more comfort.  I think if Mooney had managed to go after a lower price point customer, they might have been able to keep selling airplanes or only had a short down time.  Unfortunately the cost of building a Mooney is so high, going to that price point would result in them selling at a loss. 

[Hank]

An interesting analysis would be retrofitting the Mooney factory with some robotics to automate the frame welding and wing rib alignment. Surely there's no need to still do everything by hand. Could the rivets be at least partially automated? Sheet metal stamping? But that's where you get into bad ROI, having only a small annual production run to spread cost over. Still, one or two assembly & welding robots from the auto industry [even used ones!] would surely be less expensive in the long run than several employees with holidays, vacations, insurance, payroll taxes, etc.

 

What would be required to restart production with some automation? It may not be what you were assigned, but it would sure make for some interesting research and reading.

[KSMooniac]

Very hard to spread capital-intensive automation over a few dozen units per year, unfortunately.  They're already in perhaps the lowest cost wage area in the country too, so spending a lot of money to "offshore" some of the work wouldn't pay back soon either.  Catch-22.

[N601RX]

I've never been to the mooney factory, but from the pictures I've saw the automation level is very low.  I did visit the Zenith experimental aircraft factory a few years ago.  They had CNC router tables that could pretty much cut and predrill every part.  No jigs were necessary for assembling the parts, just align the predrilled parts and insert rivets.  You can buy a CNC router table that will hold a 4x12 sheet of aluminum for less than a year of an employees salary.

[KSMooniac]

I would agree about the current modestly-priced tech for cutting and pre-drilling aluminum.  Van's Aircraft is/was a pioneer in that arena and made some very large strides in making kits easy to assemble without jigs.  Perhaps Mooney could adapt some of that technology, but in Mooney's case it is much more difficult with a tapered wing vs. the rectangular wing of an RV and I believe a Zenith as well.  Getting the stamped skins, for instance, cut and drilled as a flat pattern and then accurately formed to contour such that the cuts and holes are in the exact correct position each time might be difficult.  Maybe not... I dunno as that is not my area of expertise with aircraft fab.  Certainly the spar components could benefit from such technology. 

 

Van's also has a lot higher volume to amortize capital costs (and they're offshore) so it made sense for them.  Years ago I started about building an original RV-6 tail kit with blank skins and sub-structure, and I can tell you first-hand that it is very, very tedious to accurately locate parts correctly using jigs I had to construct.  The later versions with pilot holes already drilled could literally be taken out of the crate, and clecoed into complete assemblies on a flat table in just an afternoon.  (Drilling full-size, dimpling, de-burring, etc. took a lot longer!)

[marks]

Mooney is a private corporation that has gone through chapter 11 bankruptcy reoganization in the past and has changed it's name and logo in the past as a result.  It has been many decades since Mooney ever made a fixed gear airplane, so because Mooney hasn't made a primary trainer aircraft most everyone has learned to fly in the aircraft of the competition.  Unlike Cessna, Piper and Beechcraft, Mooney has always been a low volume small-time player relying on a single core model with a few improvements along the way, selling various reincarnations of the same model.  Some models have had different engines than others and a few models have been stretched from time to time, but mostly the whole line has grown out of the M-20 model.  Good luck with your assignment.  I'm sure you don't need us to tell you the rules of proper scholastic research.

[carusoam]

I'm looking forward to the finished publication!

Please be faster and more efficient than your competition. It would only be right that way.

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

I have wondered for some time what about starting the process from scratch.  Like what it would take to make an all fiberglass/carbon M20 shaped airplane.  Maybe even in experimental category.

Look what someone did to the Piper Comanche - here is just such a build concept:

http://www.saravin.com/index.html

 

I wonder how much it would cost as a Mooney?   I bet it would be a bit faster too than a M20.  I bet the costs would be similar to a Ravin, but what would a Ravin cost?

[jetdriven]

I have wondered for some time what about starting the process from scratch.  Like what it would take to make an all fiberglass/carbon M20 shaped airplane.  Maybe even in experimental category.

Look what someone did to the Piper Comanche - here is just such a build concept:

http://www.saravin.com/index.html

 

I wonder how much it would cost as a Mooney?   I bet it would be a bit faster too than a M20.  I bet the costs would be similar to a Ravin, but what would a Ravin cost?

Ravin is an interesting airplane, but the finished costs are around 150-200 grand. Plus you gotta build it.  There was one here near Houston, it had an inflight fire and crashed, killing both occupants.   it had an LS-1 Chevy V-8 engine. fit a real airplane engine in there, you might have a pretty safe airplane, remember the RV's all use certificated engines.

 

For 200 grand, I'll take a TAT TN A-36 Bonanza. 200 knots just the same, with 6 seats, and its a certified airplane.  And you dont gotta build it, you pays your money and you goes to Vegas with 4 of your friends.

[aviatoreb]

Ravin is an interesting airplane, but the finished costs are around 150-200 grand. Plus you gotta build it.  There was one here near Houston, it had an inflight fire and crashed, killing both occupants.   it had an LS-1 Chevy V-8 engine. fit a real airplane engine in there, you might have a pretty safe airplane, remember the RV's all use certificated engines.

 

For 200 grand, I'll take a TAT TN A-36 Bonanza. 200 knots just the same, with 6 seats, and its a certified airplane.  And you dont gotta build it, you pays your money and you goes to Vegas with 4 of your friends.

 

I know Byron....I too would rather a 15 year old certified airplane than a brand new experimental.  But I would not turn my nose up to a perfect copy of a M20, as the ravine, as an experimental that is well built, yes with an experimental X-version of a popular lycoming or continental.  Although I do like the idea of a fadec version....and I would be tempted by a delta hawk diesel.

 

Can a person have an agent build an experimental on their behalf?  Can an AP of your choosing build the experimental for you?  That would still be relatively cheap.

 

They could carbonize a Bonanza too...why not?  Experimental Carbon A36 look alike...10 knots faster and cheaper - TN and all.

 

I love the airplane size-speed-room-configuration of Bonanza but when I was shopping I was shocked to learn that they are too small - legroom - for a 6'4'' pilot.  Very uncomfortable with that v-bar thing.

[Fabian_Garavito]

Here is our project website for those interested. They just got it up. 

 

http://www.mwacoproject.com

[mike28w]

Hi!  I wish you well in your project.

 

  My 2 cents.....   The failure of Mooney was inevitable.  It started out as as airplane for the budget minded and rather than just staying in this niche, it tried ( and failed ) to compete with airplanes that cost more than most folks can afford.    It has essentially already been said, but few will ( or can ) pay $600,000 for a Mooney !  Mooney initially tried to produce an "Everyman's plane"  but ended up producing very expensive "sports cars for the pilot".....  They have essentially priced themselves out of their original market base and moved into a market in which they were not very competive.....and then they stayed there !!   

 

   I wish that they had stayed with  ( and focused on) a smaller , more economical version.  Something similar to the 201 seems about right.   No turbos, no 6 cylinder engines .  I don't even think they should have a glass panel , unless it's cheaper than the regular intruments....

 

   Oh well....time to get off the soapbox.....mike

[OR75]

Fabian

 

Offering a couple of more cents and another perspective:

 

beyond what customers are demanding / price point / quality / fuel economy / number of seats and what not ... we cannot ignore that the technology segment where Mooney (and other aircraft manufacturers) sits is slowly but surely being given up by this country as it is not anymore at the technology forefront. Aviation and defense have been going hand in hand and many aircraft manufacturers make or made parts for the defense industry,

 

The Defense world has evolved and is moving to a different technology space (no need for me to elaborate here !!!).

 

Other countries (no need for me to name them !!!) are moving into a segment now as they move up the scale

[Comatose]

You can't produce a competitive product in 2013 with 1960 manufacturing technology. It turns out the breaking point for trying is about 2009.