Another Mid-Air 4 Dead

[scottfromiowa]

The traffic is not blocked, exactly. You just need to invest in a GTX330ES. The ADS-B picture created by ground stations on 978mhz is aircraft specific. As in ground station receives your location from transponder and based on that location creates a specific traffic picture for your receiver. It's a "smart" transmission, meant to be received by only your aircraft. The "parasite" traffic you receive when in proximity to another ADS-B aircraft is exactly that. Not meant for you and not reliable. The air to air traffic is a different story. Not a conspiracy by FAA to get everyone to buy ADS-B Out, just a simple technical limitation.

The traffic is not blocked, exactly. You just need to invest in a GTX330ES. The ADS-B picture created by ground stations on 978mhz is aircraft specific. As in ground station receives your location from transponder and based on that location creates a specific traffic picture for your receiver. It's a "smart" transmission, meant to be received by only your aircraft. The "parasite" traffic you receive when in proximity to another ADS-B aircraft is exactly that. Not meant for you and not reliable. The air to air traffic is a different story. Not a conspiracy by FAA to get everyone to buy ADS-B Out, just a simple technical limitation.

Can I get confirmation on that. Read otherwise. Conspiracy was your word NOT mine...

[scottfromiowa]

For the record I believe because I am not transmitting out I am blocked from receiving what is there deliberately, NOT because of a "technical issue"

[gsengle]

It is not blocked.  The FAA just doesn't know you are there because you have a passive system, and thus doesn't know to send you that info!

 

So FAA wants GA to improve our safety record...yet ADS-B is blocked on most traffic on my Garmin (non-certified system)...

NOPE

[AndyFromCB]

For the record I believe because I am not transmitting out I am blocked from receiving what is there deliberately, NOT because of a "technical issue"

You're not blocked, if you have a non-certified ADS-B receiver like garmin 696 and GDL39 combo, you would receive the traffic but only if you're piggy back onto another aircraft with ADS-B out. If no other aircraft are within 15 mile radius of you that are requesting a traffic picture, the ground station simply doesn't send anything out. There is no blocking involved,simply no transmissions from ground stations. Remember, every transmission is tailored to the receiving aircraft in order to minimize bandwidth that is already at a premium on 1090 and getting there on 978.

[Piloto]

For the record I believe because I am not transmitting out I am blocked from receiving what is there deliberately, NOT because of a "technical issue"

I can see your frustation. But the way the system works it would overload the bandwidth capacity if each UAT station would be transmitting all the traffic around continuosly. It would also impair on the weather broadcast. Also if you have a Mode C only transponder (like a KT-76), on the traffic data you receive there is no way of differentiating your transponder reply from traffic around you. So either you live with your own shadow or set a mask around you to not show traffic close to you, But this denies the purpose of collision avoidance. That is why the portables do not have voice warnings.

 

I noticed on several ADS-B screens that the shadow or ghost is never at 00 relative altitude but some offset, either above or below. This is because relative altitude is computed based on your GPS altitude and not on your barometric altitude. All transponders, including ADS-B out report barometric altitude. This may seem not important except when avoiding a collision. As an example a traffic at a true relative altitude of -300ft may show on your tablet display at 00ft. You decide to descend to avoid traffic but you are  actually descending to the traffic true relative altitude. This is why so important that all TAS use the same altitude source as that transmitted by your own transponder. Otherwise the TAS could be inducing into a collison instead of avoiding one. Beware of this limitations before performing any evasive maneuver.

 

José      

[N201MKTurbo]

The software on the ground side could easily send unsolicited traffic data every XX seconds that it hasn't had a specific request for traffic. It seems like unsolicited traffic would be more important then weather. Traffic changes much faster then weather.

 

I'm sure there have been many meetings at the FAA arguing about these things. As a software developer I learned long ago, no matter how cool you think your software is, if your customer doesn't use it as you intended then you need to change it to the way the customer uses it, no matter how stupid you think the customer is.

[AndyFromCB]

The software on the ground side could easily send unsolicited traffic data every XX seconds that it hasn't had a specific request for traffic. It seems like unsolicited traffic would be more important then weather. Traffic changes much faster then weather.

 

I'm sure there have been many meetings at the FAA arguing about these things. As a software developer I learned long ago, no matter how cool you think your software is, if your customer doesn't use it as you intended then you need to change it to the way the customer uses it, no matter how stupid you think the customer is.

 

Once again, the problem is ADS-B presents a customized solution for each aircraft. Can't send out traffic every XX seconds because what are you sending it relative to?

[scottfromiowa]

The traffic is not blocked, exactly. You just need to invest in a GTX330ES. The ADS-B picture created by ground stations on 978mhz is aircraft specific. As in ground station receives your location from transponder and based on that location creates a specific traffic picture for your receiver. It's a "smart" transmission, meant to be received by only your aircraft. The "parasite" traffic you receive when in proximity to another ADS-B aircraft is exactly that. Not meant for you and not reliable. The air to air traffic is a different story. Not a conspiracy by FAA to get everyone to buy ADS-B Out, just a simple technical limitation.

No, I do not "need" or want to invest in a new transponder.

[jetdriven]

Oh never mind what's safety when you can drop several grand for your system...no biggie

 

Statistically a midair collision is one of the smallest risks you take in aviation. Takeoff and landing accidents and loss of control are over a hundred times more likely.  No gadget yet invented can keep the pilot from running off the side of the runway or stalling his machine.  Yet people think gadgets can save them.

[AndyFromCB]

No, I do not "need" or want to invest in a new transponder.

 

Correct, until 2020 but if you'd like to receive ADS-B traffic, you do. I understand the frustration but technology and the world doesn't stand still, it moves forward. I think the show "Deadwood" put it the best: "change ain't looking for no friends, it plays the tune we all dance to" 

[AndyFromCB]

Statistically a midair collision is one of the smallest risks you take in aviation. Takeoff and landing accidents and loss of control are over a hundred times more likely.  No gadget yet invented can keep the pilot from running off the side of the runway or stalling his machine.  Yet people think gadgets can save them.

 

True, unless you're at an uncontrolled airfield with a 15 aircraft busy flight school like me at KCBF right below charlie airspace where frequency change happens 2 miles away from the field. My GTS800 makes me sleep well at night.

[jetdriven]

According to the 2010 Nall report,  there were 4 midair collisions resulting in 8 deaths.   420 people were killed that year from all causes in 21 MILLION flight hours.  That's 2% of all fatalities caused by midair collisions. 

 

However, 70% of the fatalities are caused by pilot-related factors such as low altitude maneuvering, takeoff and landing accidents, fuel mismanagement, and encounters with weather.  In short, pilots screw up.

 

So, you can spend 8 grand on a TCAS system, for example, which causes you to be even more distracted with all the gizmos inside the cockpit, rather than invest in airmanship, judgment, certificates, and proficiency.  It might make you sleep better at night, but data is data.  Spend wisely.

[Bennett]

Advanced avionics are just tools. If you really learn to use them they are a valuable aid. If using them is not automatic and well understood, they can be a distraction. I don't know about others but I spend hours reading and rereading manuals, and then sit in the airplane on my hangar setting up examples. When GPS is needed, I taxi the airplane to the runup area and try out various scenarios. On most flights I try different screens and pages to find out what works best for me. Mid airs may be rare, but ADS-B in/out is proving helpful to me as I see more aircraft on screen than I normally see with my eyes only. Add aural warnings and I think safety is enhanced. Yes, the gear is expensive, and if you have an older panel, there are other items that have a better cost/benefit ratio. Still if you can afford it, and you are willing to spend the time and effort to master these new "magic" boxes, why not?

[scottfromiowa]

Correct, until 2020 but if you'd like to receive ADS-B traffic, you do. I understand the frustration but technology and the world doesn't stand still, it moves forward. I think the show "Deadwood" put it the best: "change ain't looking for no friends, it plays the tune we all dance to"

Sigh....MAYBE IF THE DOLLAR SPENT LIKE IT DID IN DEADWOOD I WOULD GET ONE...OR MAYBE I'D JUST SLIT A THROAT TAKE A TRANSPONDER AND FEED HIM TO WOO'S PIGS AND GO TO SWIGGUM'S FOR A WHORE AND A WHISKEY

[AndyFromCB]

Sigh....MAYBE IF THE DOLLAR SPENT LIKE IT DID IN DEADWOOD I WOULD GET ONE...OR MAYBE I'D JUST SLIT A THROAT TAKE A TRANSPONDER AND FEED HIM TO WOO'S PIGS AND GO TO SWIGGUM'S FOR A WHORE AND A WHISKEY

Like that ;-) 

[thinwing]

Really funny Scott

[AndyFromCB]

Apparently, the Gem brought in about $5000 a night in 1880 dollars. If Al was alive today, he'd be flying a G650.

[scottfromiowa]

OK, riddle me this...What is Craig Fuller talking about in Regulatory delays when he stated this in AOPA PILOT's July 2013 edition:

"AND, IN A CHOICE I FIND SIMPLY MIND BOGGLING, THERE ARE THOSE IN THE FAA DETERMINED TO STICK WITH A PRE-TABLET REGULATORY DECISION TO RESTRICT AIR TRAFFIC INFORMAITON AVAILABLE TO PILOTS WHO EQUIP THEIR AIRCRAFT WITH ADS-B IN. PRIOR TO THE IPAD COMING TO MARKET, IT WAS REASONED THAT RESTRICTING IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION WOULD BE AN INCENTIVE TO EQUIP WITH ADS-B OUT TECHNOLOGY, WHICH WILL BE REQUIRED IN 2020. NOW THE IPAD IS PROVIDING MANY GA PILOTS WITH NAVIGATION, WEATHER AND TRAFFIC INFORMATION N THE COCKPIT. HOWEVER, SOME REGULATORS SEEM UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO CHANGE THEIR THINKING TO MATCH THE WAY WE REALLY FLY. DESPITE THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF AN ADVISORY GROUP FROM THE AVIATION COMMUNITY, REGULATORS HAVE REFUSED TO CHANGE THE POLICY OF LIMITING ACCESS TO IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION. SO PILOTS ARE RECEIVING ONLY SOME OF THE TRAFFIC REPORTED AS THEY FLY ALONG WITH ADS-B TECHNOLOGY-YEARS AHEAD OF THE ADS-B OUT REQUIREMENT....."

THIS is what I am talking about people. stop telling me I am not right....PLEASE!

[scottfromiowa]

OK, riddle me this...What is Craig Fuller talking about in Regulatory delays when he stated this in AOPA PILOT's July 2013 edition:

"AND, IN A CHOICE I FIND SIMPLY MIND BOGGLING, THERE ARE THOSE IN THE FAA DETERMINED TO STICK WITH A PRE-TABLET REGULATORY DECISION TO RESTRICT AIR TRAFFIC INFORMAITON AVAILABLE TO PILOTS WHO EQUIP THEIR AIRCRAFT WITH ADS-B IN. PRIOR TO THE IPAD COMING TO MARKET, IT WAS REASONED THAT RESTRICTING IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION WOULD BE AN INCENTIVE TO EQUIP WITH ADS-B OUT TECHNOLOGY, WHICH WILL BE REQUIRED IN 2020. NOW THE IPAD IS PROVIDING MANY GA PILOTS WITH NAVIGATION, WEATHER AND TRAFFIC INFORMATION N THE COCKPIT. HOWEVER, SOME REGULATORS SEEM UNWILLING OR UNABLE TO CHANGE THEIR THINKING TO MATCH THE WAY WE REALLY FLY. DESPITE THE RECOMMENDATIONS OF AN ADVISORY GROUP FROM THE AVIATION COMMUNITY, REGULATORS HAVE REFUSED TO CHANGE THE POLICY OF LIMITING ACCESS TO IMPORTANT SAFETY INFORMATION. SO PILOTS ARE RECEIVING ONLY SOME OF THE TRAFFIC REPORTED AS THEY FLY ALONG WITH ADS-B TECHNOLOGY-YEARS AHEAD OF THE ADS-B OUT REQUIREMENT....."

THIS is what I am talking about people. stop telling me I am not right....PLEASE!

Can someone tell me what Fuller is talking about above? This is what I was talking about...if I am wrong I am wrong, but explain to me what he is referring to?

[scottfromiowa]

Still crickets on this....Interesting.

[Super Dave]

I think Fuller is being disingenuous; he understands the technical limitations of the system (or should anyway), but why should reality stop him from whipping up anger, fear, and resentment? It's good membership!

[scottfromiowa]

Alrighty then.  Thanks ever so much for that reply.  All cleared up now...

 

Somebody needs a shoulder rub.

 

Super, Dave.

 

Next....

[Super Dave]

Alrighty then. Thanks ever so much for that reply. All cleared up now...

Somebody needs a shoulder rub.

Super, Dave.

Next....

Scott, I think you need to make sure that you are logging out of Mooneyspace. There seems to be a four year old posting from your account. And he's kind of a jerk.

[scottfromiowa]

This four year old doesn't look over his shoulder and live in fear, but he does still love the nipple

[Jerry 5TJ]

http://www.garrecht.com/index.php/en/ads-b/trx-2000

 

http://powerflarm.us/

 

The FLARM system is becoming more popular amongst glider pilots worldwide.  I don’t know how many users in the US, but if you fly frequently in close proximity of soaring centers you might want to take a look at this system.   

Cool system.   FLARM is intended to prevent glider to glider mid-air and does not work to alert GA aircraft unless the GA aircraft carries FLARM, though.  Maybe in the near futue PowerFLARM will become PowerFLARM+ and include UAT ADS-B Out, then its users will be visible to the rest of the USA based GA fleet. 

Approps of nothing, I saw a glider with Mode A/C at FL190 a few weeks ago in southern California, rather, I saw him on the Skywatch L3 and ATC called him out as traffic.   Likely that wasn't a student in a rented 2-32.