Stall Turn or Hammerhead Turn

[rockydoc]

Since I fly a lot in the mountains, I was looking for a Mooney CFI to teach me how to do a Stall or Hammerhead turn to use in the event that i wind up at the end of a box canyon with no room to reverse course.  I was told that since the Mooney is not certified for acrobatics that it would be illegal for them to teach me this procedure in my Mooney.  I want to perfect this turn in my personal airplane and not in a rental aerobatic plane.  Any ideas from you guys will be welcomed.

[jlunseth]

Why not just a chandelle? 

[BigTex]

I personally would stay clear of any conditions or situation where you'd have to execute such a maneuver in your Mooney.  That being said, go out and get some aerobatic time with an aerobatic instructor in an aerobatic aircraft.  That way you learn in a safe manner in a plane qualified for Aerobatic flight.  Then if you ever have to execute such an emergency maneuver in your Mooney, you'll know how.

[scottfromiowa]

Why not NOT enter a box canyon?

[AmigOne]

Best advice: don't get in a box canyon. It may be simplistic but it works. With the amount of information and the ability to study a route before a flight plus GPS and terrain warning there should not be an excuse to get in that predicament. If I were in that situation though and there was a slight possibility of a 180 I would slow down to a crawl, hug a wall of the canyon and turn...and pray while cursing myself. Finally I think a chandelle might work best, maybe.

[rockydoc]

Why not just a chandelle? 

Most box canyons don't have enough room to execute a Chandelle.

[rockydoc]

Best advice: don't get in a box canyon. It may be simplistic but it works. With the amount of information and the ability to study a route before a flight plus GPS and terrain warning there should not be an excuse to get in that predicament. If I were in that situation though and there was a slight possibility of a 180 I would slow down to a crawl, hug a wall of the canyon and turn...and pray while cursing myself. Finally I think a chandelle might work best, maybe.

Without a doubt, good flight planning to do everything in your power to avoid a box canyon.  But, I love to explore the mountains from Colorado to Southern Mexico.  In Mexico there are no VFR charts available.  I've been flying the mountains for years, but always in a high performance twin.  My M20B is the first single engine I will have every flown as a "daily driver."   I want to be as prepared as I can.  Years ago when i first started flying, I took an "unusual attitude recovery" course to better prepare myself.  Since a stall turn is so inherently dangerous, I want to learn how to do it in my own airplane--my Mooney M20B.

[rob]

If you're in a situation where you can't avoid a box canyon, you're probably not in a situation where any maneuver is going to be of much help. The advice above to avoid the situation is the most prudent advice given here. I appreciate the OP wanting to become a more proficient pilot, but would encourage that he do so in an appropriate aircraft. Then if the need for the skill ever presents itself in the Mooney, the emergent situation would justify attempting it as a last resort.

[TTaylor]

Since I fly a lot in the mountains, I was looking for a Mooney CFI to teach me how to do a Stall or Hammerhead turn to use in the event that i wind up at the end of a box canyon with no room to reverse course.  I was told that since the Mooney is not certified for acrobatics that it would be illegal for them to teach me this procedure in my Mooney.  I want to perfect this turn in my personal airplane and not in a rental aerobatic plane.  Any ideas from you guys will be welcomed.

I doubt you would be able to do a hammerhead. In essence if you don't have the energy to clear the canyon you likely don't have excess energy to do the hammerhead either. The maneuver we practice is closer to a "Split-S", with the assumption that you have room under you but not wide enough to complete a level turn. If you have no elevation left below you, you really screwed up. I practice pulling up to minimum maneuvering speed and rolling over to dive and pull out going the opposite direction. This takes the minimum horizontal direction to complete the 180 degree turn, while still in full control of the aircraft at all times.

Example here:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/safe/safety/canyon_turn.htm

[rockydoc]

I doubt you would be able to do a hammerhead. In essence if you don't have the energy to clear the canyon you likely don't have excess energy to do the hammerhead either. The maneuver we practice is closer to a "Split-S", with the assumption that you have room under you but not wide enough to complete a level turn. If you have no elevation left below you, you really screwed up. I practice pulling up to minimum maneuvering speed and rolling over to dive and pull out going the opposite direction. This takes the minimum horizontal direction to complete the 180 degree turn, while still in full control of the aircraft at all times.

Example here:

http://www.pilotfriend.com/safe/safety/canyon_turn.htm

Great article.  Gave me a whole new perspective on living throught a "tight."  Thanks for sharing.  i printed it out for my aviation library.

[carusoam]

Is it possible that a 50 year old speedster is not the appropriate machine to use to explore uncharted canyons?

Maybe a Cirrus would be better for Rocky. Fly till you see no further, then pray some as you pull the big red handle.

This makes no sense, or is it just me? Doctor, lawyer, lowest cost Mooney, aerobatics, uncharted canyons in Mexico... All things that I have not seen together in one place or one time...

Conversations like this end up with flying IFR in icing conditions, or discussing how close to the thunderstorm can I fly.....???

Best regards and sorry for taking the punch bowl away,

-a-

[rockydoc]

Is it possible that a 50 year old speedster is not the appropriate machine to use to explore uncharted canyons?

Maybe a Cirrus would be better for Rocky. Fly till you see no further, then pray some as you pull the big red handle.

This makes no sense, or is it just me? Doctor, lawyer, lowest cost Mooney, aerobatics, uncharted canyons in Mexico... All things that I have not seen together in one place or one time...

Conversations like this end up with flying IFR in icing conditions, or discussing how close to the thunderstorm can I fly.....???

Best regards and sorry for taking the punch bowl away,

-a-

Thought provoking comments.  Thanks for expressing them.

[Alan Fox]

Why not just jump off a building and save the airplane.....Box Canyon =Death.......Try planning the flight in advance....

[N201MKTurbo]

OK, after nearly 5000 hours flying Mooneys, I've had my share of interesting situations. I find that when I'm flying with other people in the plane, especially just out joy riding, I'm probably the most dangerous. In my daily commute or business flying I do things very routinly even down to how many steps I use to open the hanger door. When out joy riding in the mountains, I'm doing things that are outside of my routine, which is a nice break from the day to day boring flying.

That being said, one day about 15 years ago I was taking some friends sightseeing around the lakes east of phoenix which have canyons. I've done this many times and I'm very familiar with the area. Doing steep turns so they could see the boats and dams and scenery. Not super low, but not to high either. Next thing I look about a mile or so ahead and notice that the next ridge looks kind of high, so I go to full power and Vx. As I get closer I realize that I might not make it, I have no extra energy and no place to turn. All the maneuvers you are talking about would not work. I was trying to out climb rising terrain, any maneuver would have caused a stall with no room to recover. About all you can do at that point is re-discover religion. Well I cleared the ridge by about 100 feet. My passengers thought it was kind of cool. I didn't tell them how close they came to a very hard landing on top of a mountain.

I don't know of any training that would have changed this situation. People know it is dangerous to drink and drive yet they still do it. People know the speed limit yet they still exceed it. I have flown around those canyons so many times I didn't think there was anything out there that could hurt me.

 

Just be careful out there....

[rockydoc]

I find the judgmental comments very interesting.  I have over 6000 hours in all sorts of equipment from C-172 to Citation 1SP and pretty much everything in between. I am a person who likes being prepared for any event--including exiting from a box canyon that I inadvertantly wandered into.  I never said I planned on doing hammerhead.  just like the previous poster shared with us...shi_ happens sometimes.  Although I'm instrument rated, at my present age and only flying a couple of hundred hours per year, I don't fly at night nor under IFR conditions.  But, one  of us, seems to think that wanting to be prepared for an unplanned event is the same as being careless enough to be "flying IFR in icing conditions" and seeing "how close to a thunderstorm" you can fly.  What can I say other than, don't be so judgmental.  Accept the fact that we are all in this together and just doing the best we can to benefit from the experiences of our fellow forum members that are kind enough to share.  Oh, on another note, while I have purchased an M20B because I have always thought a Mooney to be a great single engine high performance airplane, i don't even take delivery of it for another two weeks.  After the comment was made about me having a "50 year old speedster" that might not be suited for mountain flying, I would be VERY interested in comments from the rest of you about the reliability of a well maintained "50 year old speedster."  Since I live in Mexico, I don't have a Mooney Service Center at my disposal.  I purchased the "50 year old speedster" because i thought it would be an extremely reliable old bird.  Am I wrong?  Thanking all of you in advance for your constructive comments and positive solutions, i remain, Rockydoc1

[carusoam]

Rocky,

Your Convesation is similar to those who have erred in front of you. I can't tell about your intention or your age or your ability to make a proper decision.

But, I care enough about you, that I would make a statement that would make you think about what you intend to do.

Once you lose a friend in a Mooney accident that could possibly have been avoided through conversation. You may not let a similar opportunity get by a second time....

You can search for Patrick on this site.

Stay ahead of the plane my friend... Way ahead...

Best regards,

-a-

[rockydoc]

Rocky,

Your Convesation is similar to those who have erred in front of you. I can't tell about your intention or your age or your ability to make a proper decision.

But, I care enough about you, that I would make a statement that would make you think about what you intend to do.

Once you lose a friend in a Mooney accident that could possibly have been avoided through conversation. You may not let a similar opportunity get by a second time....

You can search for Patrick on this site.

Stay ahead of the plane my friend... Way ahead...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for your approach.  It is appreciated.

[PTK]

...shi_ happens sometimes...           ...don't be so judgmental.  

Human beings by nature don't plan to fail. We fail to plan.

Sometimes we don't think ahead and it affects us. Unfortunately flying is not at all forgiving to planning failures. 

[FloridaMan]

For what it's worth, your smallest diameter turn with any margin of safety is at 120 mph and 60 degrees of bank. At 100 mph, you're at your stall speed. 

 

As for entering a box canyon, those of us in Florida have all flown around afternoon thunderstorms. Just a couple weeks ago, ATC reported that another pilot went through a hole at 7000 ft. I was just a few minutes behind him and the clouds had grown to 15,000 ft in that time. Upon flying around the back side of one cloud, I found myself flying into a corner and I had to turn around. 

 

 

Bank Angle

Speed 15 30 45 60

60 1,804 837 484 279

70 2,456 1,140 658 380

80 3,208 1,489 860 497

90 4,059 1,884 1,088 628

100 5,012 2,326 1,343 776

110 6,064 2,815 1,625 939

120 7,217 3,350 1,934 1,117

130 8,470 3,931 2,270 1,311

140 9,823 4,559 2,633 1,521

150 11,276 5,234 3,022 1,746

160 12,830 5,955 3,439 1,986

170 14,484 6,723 3,882 2,242

180 16,238 7,537 4,352 2,514

[chrisk]

 Finally I think a chandelle might work best, maybe.

 

What is the difference between a Chandelle, a Wing Over, and a Hammer Head?  Are they all the similar, but differ in degree?  

[scottfromiowa]

Great article.  Gave me a whole new perspective on living throught a "tight."  Thanks for sharing.  i printed it out for my aviation library.

Enjoyed reading the article.  Thanks for posting.  I have no desire to fly over mountains in a single engine airplane.  M20b NOT high performance by definition, nor is my M20E.

 

My take was that the steep turn is THE maneuver for box canyons based on the article from someone that knows.  The baseball player in New York could have used that read before flying that day.  Probably didn't have the altitude he needed...

[scottfromiowa]

What is the difference between a Chandelle, a Wing Over, and a Hammer Head?  Are they all the similar, but differ in degree?  

Go find a Citabria driver and have some fun to find out...Don't forget your chutes.

[rockydoc]

 

For what it's worth, your smallest diameter turn with any margin of safety is at 120 mph and 60 degrees of bank. At 100 mph, you're at your stall speed. 

 

As for entering a box canyon, those of us in Florida have all flown around afternoon thunderstorms. Just a couple weeks ago, ATC reported that another pilot went through a hole at 7000 ft. I was just a few minutes behind him and the clouds had grown to 15,000 ft in that time. Upon flying around the back side of one cloud, I found myself flying into a corner and I had to turn around. 

 

 

Bank Angle

Speed 15 30 45 60

60 1,804 837 484 279

70 2,456 1,140 658 380

80 3,208 1,489 860 497

90 4,059 1,884 1,088 628

100 5,012 2,326 1,343 776

110 6,064 2,815 1,625 939

120 7,217 3,350 1,934 1,117

130 8,470 3,931 2,270 1,311

140 9,823 4,559 2,633 1,521

150 11,276 5,234 3,022 1,746

160 12,830 5,955 3,439 1,986

170 14,484 6,723 3,882 2,242

180 16,238 7,537 4,352 2,514

 

thanks for the info.  i.e. 120mph @ 60 degrees bank.  I'm having a difficult time deciphering the other numbers.  Would you explain them please.  Thanks

[FloridaMan]

I did it as a spreadsheet using Google Docs. I used a formula I found online somewhere and translated it to a spreadsheet formula: =(POW($A3*1.47,2)/(32.2*TAN(6.28/360*B$2)))*2

 where $A3 is the speed, and B$2 is the bank angle. 

 

In the list above each row is per speed, the first number, followed by the diameter (radius*2) of the bank angle for 15,30,45 and 60. 

 

There's a formula out there for rate of descent with all of this as well that I'd like to convert. It'd be nice knowing exactly how far you have given your altitude, best glide and how to bank (is it better to try to make a 180 at 60 degrees of bank and a greater rate of descent, or cover a greater distance in the hairpin at 30 degrees at a lesser rate of descent?). 

[rockydoc]

I did it as a spreadsheet using Google Docs. I used a formula I found online somewhere and translated it to a spreadsheet formula: =(POW($A3*1.47,2)/(32.2*TAN(6.28/360*B$2)))*2

 where $A3 is the speed, and B$2 is the bank angle. 

 

In the list above each row is per speed, the first number, followed by the diameter (radius*2) of the bank angle for 15,30,45 and 60. 

 

There's a formula out there for rate of descent with all of this as well that I'd like to convert. It'd be nice knowing exactly how far you have given your altitude, best glide and how to bank (is it better to try to make a 180 at 60 degrees of bank and a greater rate of descent, or cover a greater distance in the hairpin at 30 degrees at a lesser rate of descent?). 

Very nice.  Thanks for sharing.