Landing Tips

[AlanA]

My landings really frustrated me. They should be better - much better, and more consistent. I use the

100/90/80 mph formula - 100 downwind/ 90 on base/ and 80 over the fence-full flaps. I nail the speeds but it seems I often flare too high and then of course drop hard and sometimes even bounce. If I bounce I add power and imediately add power and go around again.

Please help me with your tips and experience for consistent perfect landings.

Do you recomend power on or power off landings? Do you add a small bit of power last minute in the flare if you notice you are too high? As you come in over the fence what is your decent rate? Full flaps or less? What changes do you make if you are heavy? What references are you using to begin your flare?

Thanks!!

[omega708]

When you transition from descent into ground effect, are you also transitioning your eyes to the end of the runway? That really seems to help with depth perception. Carrying a little power to touchdown will retard your descent, but it isn't going to compensate for just being too high.

[Cruiser]

^{IF you are flaring and then dropping it in, you are too slow at that point. Is the stall warning sounding? Instead of flaring, try to stop the descent. Level the nose and just level off. Keep the nose up and keep pulling back to hold the nose up with the stall horn sounding. You should settle to the runway, not drop.}

[David Mazer]

I found my landings in my Mooney really improved after I flew a tail dragger for a while. You might try getting some instruction in a cub. They are so much harder to land that after that, Mooneys become a lot easier.

[Jeev]

Hi - I see in your profile you are flying a J, me too. You may already be doing this but during the flare look down the runway not just over the spinner. Your speeds seem good and at common weights you have plenty of stall margin, as I come over the fence I am making small pitch up adjustments with my electric trim to maintain a sight picture, speed and AoA. If I were you I would go spend two hrs doing landings with a "mooney familiar" instructor or another mooney pilot with a good amount of hrs in the short body. You may be doing one little thing that he will pick up on and it easy to fix.

The above comments from Cruiser are right on, that was my prob during transition training.

As for config: midfield I have gear down no flaps 95-100kts, abeam the numbers I go one notch of flaps and 80kts, base / 3 mile final full flaps pitch for 400-500fpm, over the fence I am 70-72kts power off and a smooth flare holding it off till touchdown.

I will use T/O flaps if it is gusty and carry a little more speed.

Don't know where you live but if you are near Vegas I would be happy to fly with ya!

[HopePilot]

I'm thinking that you are coming over the fence with a bit too much energy and leveling off too high. Every situation is different, but in normal conditions I would want to be 5-10 knots slower over the fence, say 70 knots. I am full flaps, generally with only idle power, but I will add a touch if density altitude is a factor. I fly the plane down to where I feel the wheels are about 6 inches over the runway. How do I know? I don't know...I basically use the force. Then I wait. Being impatient, or trying to force the plane onto the runway, has been the cause of many a Mooney accident. I wait for the plane to decide that it's ready to land and as it tries to settle on the runway, I hold the nose where it was on the horizon, until the mains have contacted the runway. People make the mistake of arriving in ground effect with too much energy and try to land the plane instead of setting the conditions for the plane to land itself. Hope that helps.

[Bartman]

Speed over the fence may be too high. Try 75 MPH over the fence, then flare with eyes on the other end of the runway about 6-12 inches off the surface.

I found the most important technique is to use the electric trim intermittently all the way to the moment you touch the runway, especially while in the final moments in gound effect. This will keep the nose up and take away all of effort on the yoke. Try it.

1977 J model

[aviatoreb]

My landings really frustrated me. They should be better - much better, and more consistent. I use the

100/90/80 mph formula - 100 downwind/ 90 on base/ and 80 over the fence-full flaps. I nail the speeds but it seems I often flare too high and then of course drop hard and sometimes even bounce. If I bounce I add power and imediately add power and go around again.

Please help me with your tips and experience for consistent perfect landings.

Do you recomend power on or power off landings? Do you add a small bit of power last minute in the flare if you notice you are too high? As you come in over the fence what is your decent rate? Full flaps or less? What changes do you make if you are heavy? What references are you using to begin your flare?

Thanks!!

Several have said this - don't try to force a Mooney that is gliding in ground effect to land before it is ready - I do the following to remind myself sometimes - I remind myself to flair and then TRY NOT to land. I try to float in that ground effect for as long as possible, and to do that requires slowly pulling back on your yoke, which is what you are supposed to do anyway. Eventually you just sink down to the runway mains first. The whole thing unfolds in just a few seconds anyway but this mindset helps me land nicely.

[201er]

Mooneys sit pretty low so you got float pretty low to the ground. Just keep the float level and going until she doesn't want to fly anymore and then pull back a lot to land on the mains and keep the nosewheel off the ground to slow down quicker. I typically take the power out completely before I've even crossed the fence. The Mooney glides very well so having extra power late gets in the way. Just gotta be at the right height no power gliding it in. I start pulling back into a stall when I'm down to (guessing) 10ft above the ground. You see ground effect kicks in so it keeps the plane going. I feel like from this height the "1.3x VSO" safety cushion is no longer relevant (not that I would but even if I did drop it in from this height it can handle it). So I'm already slowing to 60 knots and this reduces the overall float. Once I know it won't balloon, I pull back a lot to get the nose high and mains low to gently touchdown and stall out remaining lift. Also I use almost complete up trim for landing to be able to pull back enough.

[Bennett]

For those who have speed brakes you might try popping them in and out to adjust speed (drag on final) and glide path. At these lower speeds they are less effective than at cruise, but still noticeably effective. A go around should not be a problem as both the vacuum and electric units retract very quickly, and in my experience you can even climb out initially even when out (and even when asymmetric if one should stick). I've had speed brakes on my former Mooney and used then in all sorts of situations for 16 years in that aircraft, and for the two years or so that I have had my J. They are one of many tools available, and like any other tool require learning to use them in an optimum fashion I often land with them out as I want all the drag I can get in ground effect Typically 70 kts over the fence, full flaps (unless really stron crosswinds)

[Bennett]

...,, really strong crosswinds), most likely speed brakes out, and engine at idle last 200' AGL Like others who have commented, I use the trim to hold the nose in landing altitude, and let the airplane land itself. At KSQL (2600' - about sea level) I will use about 1500' to land and turn off the runway On the best days (when no one is watching and when I have no passengers to impress the stall warning is just starting to sound as the mains touch down. If you have speed brakes I suggest that you experiment various ways of using them - not just for the slam dunks from altitude , and not as a crutch, but as just one of many tools available for adjusting speed and glide path

[Bennett]

Just one more comment. Getting a seaplane rating really helps as you generally land by setting up the aircraft in landing attitude, and just hold it at that attitude until you are semi-surprised that you have just landed on the water.

[John Pleisse]

^{Omega's advice is often the sure cure. I would add, keep your eyes pinned on the opposite threshold until the mains chirp and you've let the nose wheel all the way down. It'll take three of four times. Often you think you are looking at the opposite threshold, but your eyes start to wander back to the cowling without realizing it. About the third or fourth time, you get pissed, fixate on the opposite end of the runway and......eureka. Butter.}

[mike28w]

I fly a 63 C (short body) , so this may not apply, but I see a couple of possible issues..... Whenever I float too much after flare, it's almost always because I came in too hot !! These Mooneys think they're gliders when they're in ground effect ! If I don't have my stall horn going when I'm just about to touch down, I'm just asking for a float or bounce .

Suggestions ...... get up to altitude a do a bunch of slow flight near stall speed. Know exactly when your stall horn goes off and how much slower your plane will go ( and how it feels ) before it stalls.My stall horn goes off about 5-7 knots before it actually stalls....find out when your stall horn goes off. I like full flaps and aggressively trim on appraoch to keep it slow . After the flare , don't let the nose drop......bad things happen if you land on the nose wheel !!

Oh yeah..... I'm a little skeptical of offering airspeeds because I'm not at all convinced that all of these old airspeed indicators are actually very accurate ( especially at slower speeds). Find out what airspeed your plane shows before it stalls....That's the number to pay attention to !!

Fly safe, mike

[bd32322]

I had the same issue and i was a tailwheel pilot before the mooney (decathlon). The part of tailwheel flying that helped with my mooney landings was looking out on the side at about 10 o clock - that gave me a good perception of height above runway. At this point i am holding the nose level and then once the runway appears close enough i transition to the flare and do what everyone is mentioning which is to look at the end of the runway past the spinner to gauge sink rate in the flare. This will get you down reasonably well

This took care of the problem of when to start the flare. For your home field you can even put a little strip of tape where the edge of the runway shows up in the side window provided you are on center line. It will tell you about the angle and height above runway for the field and runway where you originally set the tape

[FloridaMan]

Long post made short: Trim should be between takeoff and full nose-up (remember you'll have to fight this on a go-around). Try landing with takeoff or between takeoff and full flaps. With that configuration, the plane should settle on its own.

Now, the rest of my post:

On landing, your trim should be somewhere between takeoff and full nose up. I follow the standard 100/90/80 over the fence, but have crossed as high as 95 and still gotten the airspeed off and settled smoothly and firmly.

Try coming in with less than full flaps, especially if it's gusting. You *should* be able to land with full flaps, but it requires that you judge the flare a little more accurately (I'm still learning myself and will often not use full flaps, especially if I have passengers and it's windy).

I will sometimes use the throttle to soften the touchdown if I flare too high.

My biggest issue is landing on the mains and having the nose wheel hit and then come back up with the mains firmly planted. If I'm going too fast, I'll feel the vibration from the nosewheel spinning while I'm holding the nose up. I think I land with a stabilized nose-high sink instead of a well-judged flare. It makes for smooth touchdowns, but I have a feeling it's why the nose will sometimes roll and come back up on me.

One thing you may want to try is horsing the plane around a little while you're on your approach, especially after a long flight. It'll help you feel how the plane responds to your inputs given the weight, density altitude, et cetera.

[The-sky-captain]

All of the above is great advice. The only thing I will add is that you make sure you have enough nose up trim in setting up for your landing. I had some landing issues in the beginning and the trim issue was my problem. Practice makes perfect, but obviously you must be using the right technique. Good luck!

[jezzie]

I now have 10 hours and at least 20 landings on my J model, and seem to be settling down to 70 kts on final and I notice that all my landings are progressively getting better. My trim appears to be all the way back on my best landings and my Mooney just seems to settle down with ground effect, no problems and no stess on the gear. I must admit the new rubber disks make me look better also for thse who are flying with me.

[rbridges]

I was told by a few people to keep the treeline/horizon about 2" above the glareshield and try to maintain it during the flare. You eventually stall and should touch down fairly smooth. Another vote for your speeds looking a little fast over the #'s.

[omega708]

Agreed on the speed. I trim for 85 MPH on final and pull it back to 80 over the fence. That's roughly 70 KIAS.

[Wistarmo]

I encountered a lot of grief the last time I posted this, but it works well for me. I find my Mooney M20J lands very differently depending on the weight. I enter the flare begin rounding out at 65kts solo and add 5 kts for each passenger (70 kts with myself and one other, 75 kts with three on board, 80 kts with four on board). This is done with full flaps.

[TWinter]

Be sure you have it trimmed for hands off flying on your final. It took me forever to figure out what I was doing wrong. Long story short I was concentrating on the landing, making sure speed was okay, but fighting the plane w/ a poor trim configuration on final. I started talking to other owners and instructors..what was I doing wrong? A suggestion was watch the trim. I started to work the trim better on final, pretty much trimmed her for hands off and have been greasy since. Just my .02. and that ain't worth much these days. Good luck.

[AlanA]

Fantastic tips!! Thank you, thank you, thank you. I can't wait to practice these ideas this week. I'm going to start by seeing if my indicated speed gauge is correct. I have a feeling I may be comming in faster than what it says. As Mike suggested I will get some altitude and verify my stall speed. You have reminded me to focus further down the runway. I think I've been looking under the cowl too much. I'm also going to experiment with different flap settings. I am confident that using your advice my landings will improve. I am sure your advice is also going to help many other new Mooney owners. Thanks again!

[jetdriven]

Mooneys sit pretty low so you got float pretty low to the ground. Just keep the float level and going until she doesn't want to fly anymore and then pull back a lot to land on the mains and keep the nosewheel off the ground to slow down quicker. I typically take the power out completely before I've even crossed the fence. The Mooney glides very well so having extra power late gets in the way. Just gotta be at the right height no power gliding it in. I start pulling back into a stall when I'm down to (guessing) 10ft above the ground. You see ground effect kicks in so it keeps the plane going. I feel like from this height the "1.3x VSO" safety cushion is no longer relevant (not that I would but even if I did drop it in from this height it can handle it). So I'm already slowing to 60 knots and this reduces the overall float. Once I know it won't balloon, I pull back a lot to get the nose high and mains low to gently touchdown and stall out remaining lift. Also I use almost complete up trim for landing to be able to pull back enough.

Thats what I do, 72 MPH IAS (62 KIAS) over the threshold, power idle, proper glide path. 1.3 Vso. You can stop a M20J in less than 1000'. If the wind is gusty, or at max weight add a couple knots. But this number is the target to prevent excessive floating and worse. Dont trim the entire flare in, pull the wheel back. If you go around with full nose-up trim it can get interesting.

[OldGlassMan]

Several have said this - don't try to force a Mooney that is gliding in ground effect to land before it is ready - I do the following to remind myself sometimes - I remind myself to flair and then TRY NOT to land. I try to float in that ground effect for as long as possible, and to do that requires slowly pulling back on your yoke, which is what you are supposed to do anyway. Eventually you just sink down to the runway mains first. The whole thing unfolds in just a few seconds anyway but this mindset helps me land nicely.

Good advice, I would add one other that is probably obvious to most everyone here except those new to Mooneys.

DON'T TRY TO SALVAGE A HIGH BOUNCE! The reason is that all M20s tend to be a bit nose heavy with typical landing fuel loads, and low airspeed, and the nose wants to drop after a bounce, it is VERY easy to get the nose wheel first. When that happens, look out, because two things happen: 1> the nose wheel position abruptly changes the direction of the aircraft; and 2> the mains hit a split second later and compress the short travel in the rubber shocks, which then rebound, creating another oscillation inducing bounce with even lower airspeed. I think more Mooneys have died this way than any other, there are plenty of stories. You definitely want all of the airspeed gone before the mains hit.